Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what happened to law:

1. As people realized it was too difficult to enter science, medicine, engineering, math, economics or similar fields, they turned to a profession with then high incomes and the glut of lawyers began.

2. Many laws were passed (Dodd-Frank, Sarbanes-Oxley) to provide more low level employment for lawyers.
This made lawyers think it would be easy to obtain a job outside of a law firm.

3. Technology advances created a need for patent lawyers, intellectual property, etc. lawyers, and this again made people think there were plenty of jobs.

4. Women entered the field of law in large numbers beginning in the 1970s because it was an easier professional degree to obtain (see #1 above). Any time women enter a field, pay goes down.

5. Technology replaced functions once done by new associates, so less need for them.

It is simple: Too many people looking for an easier to enter field than sciences and too few jobs. If these people learned something useful, they could have a very good job.

This exactly!

Compared to those other majors in college, pre-law is a breeze.

Right now all of the college aged people I meet are Psychology majors. I predict the same thing for the Psych field in the next 5-7 yrs.

Most lawyers did not major in pre-law.

Anonymous wrote:This is what happened to law:

1. As people realized it was too difficult to enter science, medicine, engineering, math, economics or similar fields, they turned to a profession with then high incomes and the glut of lawyers began.

2. Many laws were passed (Dodd-Frank, Sarbanes-Oxley) to provide more low level employment for lawyers.
This made lawyers think it would be easy to obtain a job outside of a law firm.

3. Technology advances created a need for patent lawyers, intellectual property, etc. lawyers, and this again made people think there were plenty of jobs.

4. Women entered the field of law in large numbers beginning in the 1970s because it was an easier professional degree to obtain (see #1 above). Any time women enter a field, pay goes down.

5. Technology replaced functions once done by new associates, so less need for them.

It is simple: Too many people looking for an easier to enter field than sciences and too few jobs. If these people learned something useful, they could have a very good job.

This exactly!

Compared to those other majors in college, pre-law is a breeze.

Right now all of the college aged people I meet are Psychology majors. I predict the same thing for the Psych field in the next 5-7 yrs.

nando is a fuckin legend!

People may not like Nando's style, but he is speaking truth to power, or however you want to put it.

The law schools got greedy over the last couple of decades, and there is now a glut of un/underemployed attorneys burdened with significant, non-dischargeable debt at a higher relative percentage in 2017 dollars, compared to law grads from the 60s or 70s or even 80s. Full stop. Look to law professors like Paul Campos for more information.

LSAT scores and bar pass rates have been plummeting, websites like Law School Transparency have shown the disconnect between what law schools advertise and the actual results for grads. There is downward pressure on salaries due to competition, outsourcing, and automation. Some schools, like Valparaiso and Charlotte School of Law, have been sanctioned by the ABA for not maintaining accreditation standards. All the low-hanging fruit has been picked currently but the law schools have lowered their standards to keep the gravy train going. It may get "better" at some undetermined point in the future as economic cycles tend to wax and wane, but now is not that time.

If you have financial backing and good social capital, you can go to (almost) any law school you like, because the tools you need you already had before coming in the door - especially if you are aiming for BigLaw or starting your own practice. For many, many, many students, that is just not the case, period. Obviously, schools like Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Michigan, U of Chicago, etc. etc. etc. provide good value, but your mileage can definitely vary. Be extremely cautious, or as an earlier poster stated, go into something else entirely.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I get what he's saying in some respects and it sounds like he graduated at a really bad time - as of 2009 when his blog started he was a "recent grad" of Drake, so he graduated along with the economic downturn, which really sucks.

However even if you graduate from a 3rd or 4th tier law school, provided your grades are at all decent and you pass the bar (which I get is a tall order for students from the super borderline schools that admit just about everyone), aren't you pretty much guaranteed stable, steady employment at, like, an insurance company or one of the big legal publishing houses (Lexis-Nexis) or some other large corporation? No, you're not going to be raking in 160k a year right out of school like you would at biglaw. But it's a stable, white-collar career with some room for advancement and probably better work-life balance than a big firm. I don't know, you could do worse imo. People graduate from undergrad with 150k+ in student loan debt and way worse career prospects.

hahahaaaa. good one, PP.

Different person here. Granted, I haven't looked. But are jobs with Lexis/Nexis and the like really that much in demand that law grads from 3rd tiers needn't apply? Just curious.

It's not that they're so in demand that lower-tier grads needn't apply. It's that these jobs are scarce, period.

Glad I went the science/eng route then. That sounds tough.

Anonymous wrote:It may come as a surprise to some, but even the work of an attorney can be largely automated.

And outsourced. And sent to middle America. I'm still laughing mirthlessly at the guaranteed a job poster. I'm a top tier grad thinking of retooling as a science person.

It may come as a surprise to some, but even the work of an attorney can be largely automated.

This is what happened to law:

1. As people realized it was too difficult to enter science, medicine, engineering, math, economics or similar fields, they turned to a profession with then high incomes and the glut of lawyers began.

2. Many laws were passed (Dodd-Frank, Sarbanes-Oxley) to provide more low level employment for lawyers.
This made lawyers think it would be easy to obtain a job outside of a law firm.

3. Technology advances created a need for patent lawyers, intellectual property, etc. lawyers, and this again made people think there were plenty of jobs.

4. Women entered the field of law in large numbers beginning in the 1970s because it was an easier professional degree to obtain (see #1 above). Any time women enter a field, pay goes down.

5. Technology replaced functions once done by new associates, so less need for them.

It is simple: Too many people looking for an easier to enter field than sciences and too few jobs. If these people learned something useful, they could have a very good job.

I graduated in 2009 from a low 2nd tier/top 3rd tier school. I was married and my husband had a solid career in his field therefore relocating for a better school was not an option.

Due to some family issues during school, my grades were not the best. However, I graduated early, passed the bar and worked very hard for low pay. It has paid off as I now have a job in a very specific field and due to my knowledge and hard work, I am able to have a very flexible schedule with pretty decent pay and benefits.

As with any field of study, a job is not guaranteed. The job market is definitely tougher than it used to be but it is still possible to work hard and make a career for yourself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I get what he's saying in some respects and it sounds like he graduated at a really bad time - as of 2009 when his blog started he was a "recent grad" of Drake, so he graduated along with the economic downturn, which really sucks.

However even if you graduate from a 3rd or 4th tier law school, provided your grades are at all decent and you pass the bar (which I get is a tall order for students from the super borderline schools that admit just about everyone), aren't you pretty much guaranteed stable, steady employment at, like, an insurance company or one of the big legal publishing houses (Lexis-Nexis) or some other large corporation? No, you're not going to be raking in 160k a year right out of school like you would at biglaw. But it's a stable, white-collar career with some room for advancement and probably better work-life balance than a big firm. I don't know, you could do worse imo. People graduate from undergrad with 150k+ in student loan debt and way worse career prospects.

hahahaaaa. good one, PP.

Different person here. Granted, I haven't looked. But are jobs with Lexis/Nexis and the like really that much in demand that law grads from 3rd tiers needn't apply? Just curious.

Anonymous wrote:I get what he's saying in some respects and it sounds like he graduated at a really bad time - as of 2009 when his blog started he was a "recent grad" of Drake, so he graduated along with the economic downturn, which really sucks.

However even if you graduate from a 3rd or 4th tier law school, provided your grades are at all decent and you pass the bar (which I get is a tall order for students from the super borderline schools that admit just about everyone), aren't you pretty much guaranteed stable, steady employment at, like, an insurance company or one of the big legal publishing houses (Lexis-Nexis) or some other large corporation? No, you're not going to be raking in 160k a year right out of school like you would at biglaw. But it's a stable, white-collar career with some room for advancement and probably better work-life balance than a big firm. I don't know, you could do worse imo. People graduate from undergrad with 150k+ in student loan debt and way worse career prospects.

hahahaaaa. good one, PP.

It really is all about timing. I graduated from a third tier law school in 2002. I chose that school because I they gave me a very nice scholarship, which allowed me to graduate debt-free. I worked hard, graduated with honors, passed the bar on the first shot and landed a job with DOJ. I work with Ivy grads everyday and I have 0 student debt.

It would've been very difficult to recreate my situation in 2009. Timing is everything.

I get what he's saying in some respects and it sounds like he graduated at a really bad time - as of 2009 when his blog started he was a "recent grad" of Drake, so he graduated along with the economic downturn, which really sucks.

However even if you graduate from a 3rd or 4th tier law school, provided your grades are at all decent and you pass the bar (which I get is a tall order for students from the super borderline schools that admit just about everyone), aren't you pretty much guaranteed stable, steady employment at, like, an insurance company or one of the big legal publishing houses (Lexis-Nexis) or some other large corporation? No, you're not going to be raking in 160k a year right out of school like you would at biglaw. But it's a stable, white-collar career with some room for advancement and probably better work-life balance than a big firm. I don't know, you could do worse imo. People graduate from undergrad with 150k+ in student loan debt and way worse career prospects.

It's brutal! The blogger who created it has one of the most bitter and angry writing styles I've run across on the net:

http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/?m=1

But I'm not sure I disagree with the author; I read that something like 50% of today's law grads should give up hope of ever working in the legal profession.

A few years back, I read an editorial questioning the ethics of law schools in minting so many new lawyers, given today's legal job market.