Anonymous wrote:Just a quick note:
Research suggests that class size does not really have an impact on student achievement (within reason). The quality of the teacher is FAR more important than the size of the class.

Does not mean it would not be preferable to have smaller classes....but small classes in and of themselves do not guarantee high achievement. That said, a teacher needs to be highly skilled to manage a larger class. I would prefer the public schools spend more money on high quality teachers than on reducing class size.


Signed,
Education researcher

Interesting! We like that our DS (a 7th grader) has small class sizes at his independent school. His teachers are very young (three of them are 24 years old), but they seem OK.

Our two daughters are in public elementary school in Bethesda (MCPS), and their teachers are very experienced and knowledgeable (most in their 40s and 50s). They seem quite a bit stronger than my DS's young teachers.

I guess the idea combo is a high-quality experienced teacher with a small class size.

Anonymous wrote:3rd grade at a DC language immersion charter, 18 kids, 3 teachers - head, teacher intern, Sp Ed. Inclusion classroom.

In k, it was 17 kids with a head teacher, assistant teacher (a full teacher not intern just not the head) and a bilingual Sp Ed teacher. Inclusion classroom.

In prek, it was 18 kids with head teacher and assistant. Prek at our school is 100% in the immersion language. No English. Regular classroom.

The teacher intern in third grade is someone who is getting their teaching degree, needs the classroom hrs and is not there for the full year.

At our "big 3" we had 2 teachers (NOT one teacher plus an aide, but rather 2 full, co-equal teachers) for a class of 20 in PK and K.

3rd grade at a DC language immersion charter, 18 kids, 3 teachers - head, teacher intern, Sp Ed. Inclusion classroom.

My DS is in 5th grade at private school - 18 kids in his homeroom. Last year in public, it was 30.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids started in very highly rated public schools, which routinely had over 30 kids per class -- even at the lower elementary level. I don't care how good the teachers are, that is a struggle.

PP: I said within reason. Over 30 might be a struggle. But the difference between 17 and 22 might not be worth the cost, if the money can be put into something else. Also, if you have a lousy teachers...small class size will not overcome that. Not making an argument that we should have large class size...just trying to suggest small classes are not the magic bullet and that some thought needs to be given to the cost/benefits at certain levels.

You are missing the point that it has little to do with the teachers and more to do with the student body. In private, you were accepted and expected to adhere to school rules and not be a disruptive pain in the ass. Every year you are offered a contract. If you are disruptive, rude, don't care about school, etc... they can choose to not offer you a contract. I have seen it happen. So even if you have close to the same numbers in a class, the student body of wanting to be there and learn as opposed to some kids in public with the "too cool for school" attitude that disrupts over and over again can not be changed. Nevermind in elementary school how many kids come in not even knowing English. It makes for a tough environment for kids that just want to learn and teachers that just want to teach. There is so much more social drama in public.

My daughter went from 31 in homeroom and 33 in her 3rd grade Math class in MCPS to a private school with 12-15 kids per class. She is now in upper school private and the most she has ever had in a class is 17 kids.... and they are all educated and want to learn, which makes a huge difference.

Anonymous wrote:Just a quick note:
Research suggests that class size does not really have an impact on student achievement (within reason). The quality of the teacher is FAR more important than the size of the class.

Does not mean it would not be preferable to have smaller classes....but small classes in and of themselves do not guarantee high achievement. That said, a teacher needs to be highly skilled to manage a larger class. I would prefer the public schools spend more money on high quality teachers than on reducing class size.


Signed,
Education researcher

What about the studies (the Tennessee study, and the Wisconsin study, and I know there are others) that have shown small class sizes is directly tied to improved achievement, particularly at lower grades, when compared to larger classes with similarly qualified teachers?

The issues with reducing class sizes is when districts hire less qualified teachers to fill the new positions. But all else being equal, the research clearly shows that smaller class sizes leads to better achievement in early childhood. If you know of research that disputes this, I'd be interested in seeing it, because I am not familiar with your perspective.

When looking in Bethesda, we focused on the western part, to be zoned for the Churchill district. Smaller schools, without Whitman crowding problems. Close-in schools do have a real issue with this. Part of the reason we ruled out NoVa was because so many schools have their kids in trailers. Living in upper NW DC/close-in means facing this issue. I'm sure more families who have the means, and who might otherwise not have done so, are considering privates.

Anonymous wrote:My kids started in very highly rated public schools, which routinely had over 30 kids per class -- even at the lower elementary level. I don't care how good the teachers are, that is a struggle.

PP: I said within reason. Over 30 might be a struggle. But the difference between 17 and 22 might not be worth the cost, if the money can be put into something else. Also, if you have a lousy teachers...small class size will not overcome that. Not making an argument that we should have large class size...just trying to suggest small classes are not the magic bullet and that some thought needs to be given to the cost/benefits at certain levels.

My kids started in very highly rated public schools, which routinely had over 30 kids per class -- even at the lower elementary level. I don't care how good the teachers are, that is a struggle.

Just a quick note:
Research suggests that class size does not really have an impact on student achievement (within reason). The quality of the teacher is FAR more important than the size of the class.

Does not mean it would not be preferable to have smaller classes....but small classes in and of themselves do not guarantee high achievement. That said, a teacher needs to be highly skilled to manage a larger class. I would prefer the public schools spend more money on high quality teachers than on reducing class size.


Signed,
Education researcher

We live in the Whitman district in Montgomery County, arguably one of the best performing districts around. I received an email with this info encouraging us to fight for funds to expand both the middle school (Thomas Pyle) and the High school (Walt Whitman). People love the schools, as the administration and teachers do a wonderful job with what they have, but the space problem is just getting worse.

- Pyle has 1526 students in a building built for 1000.
- Pyle students eat lunch in the hallways and in classrooms during four lunch periods because of extreme overcrowding in the cafeteria.
- 5 to 6 PE classes occur at one time in the gym, which is designed for 2 classes. Students sit out during gym class and play games in the corridors outside the gym while they wait their turn to participate.
- Pyle stairwells are overflowing with students in between classes and some staircases are utilized as “down” or “up” only.
- Pyle has converted all computer labs, storage spaces and closets to classroom space.
- Walt Whitman High School was built for 1891 students and now has 2000 students.
- Many classes have over 34 students and students squeeze into classrooms designed for far less.

I've had DC in top-performing publics in NW DC and in Bethesda. In ES, class size has consistently been 23-24. No issues there. It's a demographic issue for some schools, which do have crowding issues (as you've read). My experience in publics has been excellent, but I'm sure there is plenty of variation.

We live in a lower performing public schools area, so at this point, we have one child in an area independent -- still in early elementary school. I know that class sizes are bigger at the public schools, but I didn't know that they could be as big as over 30 kids, as I've read on DCUM and other places. Are the larger classes in elementary on up in all area publics? Or just in high school? Or mostly in the less desirable districts or local pyramids?

Even if your kid is attending a great or highly-ranked school in Fairfax or Montgomery counties, if the classes are large, how can that not take away from the learning experience?

What is the optimal class size even when it comes to learning and social development?