Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Looks like a lot of dumb shit that men don't and never will care much about and women will never understand why men don't care about it.

"Why do I have to remember everyone's birthday"?
News flash: You don't! Women place that burden on themselves and then get pissed if the man doesn't help. Men don't give a shit if Aunt Sally gets a birthday card. They never will. If you want her to have a card do it because you want to not because YOU think it has to be done. It doesn't.
Men and women are different. Deal with it or marry a woman

Honey! The divorce papers are here! Please come sign them!

Will that stop the nagging? And I never have to see your fat ass again! Signed!

Anonymous wrote:HA!

First year of marriage and I thought it was fun to buy presents for all of my new extended family (my inlaws, all the DH siblings, their spouses and kids, all his cousins) because I was from a very small family, plus newly married! this is fun! We're so cute! awwwww!

Fast forward 15 years and somehow it turned into me being responsible for everything to do with every holiday event: not only all the Xmas plans, decorations, food, presents for our kids and his family but also the birthdays and any other big event. Bought every present my kids every received "from mom and dad" - Xmas was probably so much fun for him cause not only did he get presents but he got to see what all the kids got too cause he had no idea. Every party: organized by me. Every vacation: organized by me.

(No, I was not then and am not now a SAHM, we both worked full time. I was also 100% responsible for all things child - daycare, all shopping/clothes/whatever, doctors appointments, school...)

And so I said no more: I'm not buying for your family anymore. (researching the gifts, wrapping, and then shipping everything). This is for almost 30 people. Enough. It's ridiculous. You want your family to have presents then YOU BUY THEM. Honestly, I was completely out of ideas for gifts and just didn't have the energy.

So what did they get that year from us? Nothing.

Not a single thing.

And when his parents called him on Xmas day to inquire about the package that they didn't receive - maybe it had been lost in the mail? He had to make up some excuse and had flowers shipped the next day.

His grand solution to the whole thing? He has his secretary do it now -(just for his parents, the rest of the family doesn't get anything) and they get a Harry & David basket every year since. (Order it once, get on their schedule, they'll send it every year for you.)

He still doesn't buy for our kids - neither birthdays or Xmas. I have tried to get him involved. Maybe it's too much work (IT IS! It is a lot of work!) and he'd rather just let me do it.

But no matter how many times I tell him I'm overwhelmed or I need help or I'm so tired... I get the "aw, you can do it, you're *so good at it*, you love shopping..." No, no I don't love shopping. I actually hate shopping and the malls. *bangs head against wall*

This is me. I stopped this year too. They got phone calls from DH for Christmas. So what? Let them complain to him. Sigh. He doesn't care.

Anonymous wrote:Looks like a lot of dumb shit that men don't and never will care much about and women will never understand why men don't care about it.

"Why do I have to remember everyone's birthday"?
News flash: You don't! Women place that burden on themselves and then get pissed if the man doesn't help. Men don't give a shit if Aunt Sally gets a birthday card. They never will. If you want her to have a card do it because you want to not because YOU think it has to be done. It doesn't.
Men and women are different. Deal with it or marry a woman

Honey! The divorce papers are here! Please come sign them!

Some of this stuff, like remembering birthdays or visiting elderly relatives, is the emotional glue that holds families together and keeps people connected with one another. When men don't do their share of this work, then justify it by saying the work itself doesn't matter, that just makes them look like shirkers.

They could have saved a lot of time by just writing women are right and men are wrong.

There is a term called "grievance collector" that applies to so many women.

You ladies come up with a long list of things that YOU think is important, then get mad at men when they don't agree the the "emergencies" on your list. Guess what. We don't care if there is a ring around the toilet bowl. We will do laundry when we run out of underwear. We will clean the dishes tomorrow. The sense of urgency of household chores for men and women will never sync up. Stop nagging!

Looks like a lot of dumb shit that men don't and never will care much about and women will never understand why men don't care about it.

"Why do I have to remember everyone's birthday"?
News flash: You don't! Women place that burden on themselves and then get pissed if the man doesn't help. Men don't give a shit if Aunt Sally gets a birthday card. They never will. If you want her to have a card do it because you want to not because YOU think it has to be done. It doesn't.
Men and women are different. Deal with it or marry a woman

HA!

First year of marriage and I thought it was fun to buy presents for all of my new extended family (my inlaws, all the DH siblings, their spouses and kids, all his cousins) because I was from a very small family, plus newly married! this is fun! We're so cute! awwwww!

Fast forward 15 years and somehow it turned into me being responsible for everything to do with every holiday event: not only all the Xmas plans, decorations, food, presents for our kids and his family but also the birthdays and any other big event. Bought every present my kids every received "from mom and dad" - Xmas was probably so much fun for him cause not only did he get presents but he got to see what all the kids got too cause he had no idea. Every party: organized by me. Every vacation: organized by me.

(No, I was not then and am not now a SAHM, we both worked full time. I was also 100% responsible for all things child - daycare, all shopping/clothes/whatever, doctors appointments, school...)

And so I said no more: I'm not buying for your family anymore. (researching the gifts, wrapping, and then shipping everything). This is for almost 30 people. Enough. It's ridiculous. You want your family to have presents then YOU BUY THEM. Honestly, I was completely out of ideas for gifts and just didn't have the energy.

So what did they get that year from us? Nothing.

Not a single thing.

And when his parents called him on Xmas day to inquire about the package that they didn't receive - maybe it had been lost in the mail? He had to make up some excuse and had flowers shipped the next day.

His grand solution to the whole thing? He has his secretary do it now -(just for his parents, the rest of the family doesn't get anything) and they get a Harry & David basket every year since. (Order it once, get on their schedule, they'll send it every year for you.)

He still doesn't buy for our kids - neither birthdays or Xmas. I have tried to get him involved. Maybe it's too much work (IT IS! It is a lot of work!) and he'd rather just let me do it.

But no matter how many times I tell him I'm overwhelmed or I need help or I'm so tired... I get the "aw, you can do it, you're *so good at it*, you love shopping..." No, no I don't love shopping. I actually hate shopping and the malls. *bangs head against wall*

Anonymous wrote:A woman here, and this was an interesting read. I think there is a lot of truth here. However, I have a visceral reaction to anything that just completely categorizes how women think vs how men think. I can relate to some things said in the thread, but not others - I don't think I am a "stereotypical" woman, whatever that means.

Couldn't this be summed up by saying that it should be important to everyone to be emotionally supportive of your family and friends and spouses, to maintain and nurture those relationships? And that in many cases, it's often the females who take on more of this role? But isn't this like any division of roles between two partners - you communicate and you come to an understanding of what your roles are, and if something is not working, you communicate some more and come up with a better solution together, right?

I think that is exactly the point of it alll - that Emotional Labor shouldn't be done by JUST one person in a relationship - be they man or woman. That EVERYONE needs to do it.

Hell - business people would benefit greatly if they took the time and effort to pay attention to their clients and do a little "emotional labor" - you hear about that certain salesman who knows all the kids of all his clients and asks about them and how they are doing in college - it takes WORK to keep up that information but the person does it because he/she knows 1/it is appreciated and 2/it is good for his/her business to have a relationship with clients.

My take on all of it - no person should be expected to do anything under the assumption that their gender is "better at it". I am FUCKING NOT BETTER AT LAUNDRY. No one wants to clean toilets. No one wants to fold clothes. Making doc appointments, taking kids to their events, being the person on call - these things and all the other examples should be shared duties. A wife should not automatically get burdened with all the chores and child rearing because she is female - but it's true. Meet a woman that doesn't like kids and society goes "ew, whats wrong with her" but meet a man who doesn't want kids and nobody cares.

Its a double standard. ME? I would LOVE a wife that does everything I do. Come home from work and do nothing the rest of the night while I'm fed a home cooked meal and someone else takes care of the house and the kids? SIGN ME UP! (that's the deal my husband has had for a long time due to various things - but 4 years ago I went back to work full time, am now the major breadwinner and provide all the benefits for the family, and yet all of the other roles have not changed at all. Believe me, I have tried. Exhausted? I'm worn out. Yes, we're in counseling, 9 months and so far no progress.)

A woman here, and this was an interesting read. I think there is a lot of truth here. However, I have a visceral reaction to anything that just completely categorizes how women think vs how men think. I can relate to some things said in the thread, but not others - I don't think I am a "stereotypical" woman, whatever that means.

Couldn't this be summed up by saying that it should be important to everyone to be emotionally supportive of your family and friends and spouses, to maintain and nurture those relationships? And that in many cases, it's often the females who take on more of this role? But isn't this like any division of roles between two partners - you communicate and you come to an understanding of what your roles are, and if something is not working, you communicate some more and come up with a better solution together, right?

There is some martyrdom in the thread that makes me uncomfortable, that views women in a position of powerlessness, as victims, and places men in a position of power and abusers of that power. I don't view marriage that way, it's a partnership right? This is a generalization, but I believe are women are amazingly powerful, and in many ways, more powerful than men in many areas of life.

My husband was not always good at maintaining friendships, and remembering things like his mom's birthday. I told my husband a long time ago, probably a year into our relationship, that if something ever happens to me, I don't want him to be isolated and alone. That he needed to learn to nurture his friendships and family relationships, and that it was something he needed to learn to do, without me. And he has to some extent.

And when he didn't pick up the phone to call his mom, his mom would call me and complain about how he never called. I told her, if you want a good relationship with your son, you need to start talking to him about this, not me, that this was between him and her. Oh yeah, I got the whole "but that was my role in the family, to maintain all our family relationships, if it wasn't for me, my husband wouldn't be in touch with anyone, blah blah blah" She complained about taking on that role all the time, but I believe that it was also her way of feeling needed, important, indispensable to the family, so she did get something out of it. And she truly did take on the role with relish - every one of my husband's siblings do not really talk to each other, they talk through their mother. It's dysfunctional.

Another thank you for posting. I started reading the thread then moved to the Google doc and am working my way through it. Would love to get my DH to read it, but highly doubt that will happen. However reading it for myself is helping to crystallize things and give me the words to address these issues, and I am grateful for that.

Anonymous wrote:http://www.metafilter.com/151267/Wheres-My-Cut-On-Unpaid-Emotional-Labor

I"m going to bet that 100% of woman can relate to this.

And that a mans reactions will be split three ways:

1) That's bullshit, just a bunch of women whining (defensive)
2) I don't understand (no interest in spending any time or energy in hearing from women about women)
3) Wow. Huh. I never realized... I never thought of it that way before... (OMG, HE'S A KEEPER!)

If you'd like a "greatest hits" from that very long discussion thread someone picked out the top responses and "condensed" the 2,000+ comments into a 70 page annotated Google doc pdf.

https://drive.google.com/a/paeaonline.org/file/d/0B0UUYL6kaNeBTDBRbkJkeUtabEk/view?pref=2&pli=1

Men - I dare you to read the entire thing. To take the time and effort to read it - and not sneer or dismiss, but read it. Pretend that somewhere in those comments your wife made a posting - try to guess which one is hers.

I sent it to my husband asking him to please read it (out of desperation, as 9 months of bringing these things up in therapy have gotten me nowhere) - that I knew it was long but that I thought it had a lot of good points ... and he didn't. Said it was too long. That he didn't understand it. And it just appeared to be woman complaining about things that women just do better anyway.

It felt like a little part of me died when he said that.

(side not - unrelated - wow, the commenters at MetaFilter are sure a lot more supportive that DCUM - either they moderate all the trolls and hateful comments out or people who are responding are doing so because they want to say something constructive and adds to the conversation, not wasting their own time and the readers by making comments that shoot down the previous poster for daring not support their marriage vows. Quite refreshing.)

Thanks so much for posting this OP!

I had made an assertion in another thread about the emotional labor that SAHMs do, and the idea that this emotional labor is "work" was greeted with scorn. But, your link explains in much more detail what I was trying to say.

So many things rang true about emotional labor for me personally and also in what I see of my parent's relationship and my mom's anger about certain things. I have been trying very hard to introduce this idea to my kids (who are adolescents) -- that women do a huge amount of unpaid labor and that is not right. I want my daughter to recognize when she's doing it and make conscious decisions about why she's doing it and whether and in what way she is getting compensation. I want my son to grow up both being able to contribute emotional labor to a relationship and to not expect his mate to give it without some kind of compensation or mutuality. I'm curious how you would teach these ideas to your kids?

The link also really makes me understand my reluctance to be involved in another relationship after kicking out my wayward spouse. The amount of unpaid labor I did during and after that relationship was draining to me and completely unreturned. I still work hard to maintain a good relationship with him for the sake of our children, but it is absolutely a one way effort. In the last two years, I have been cordial, but invested far less emotional labor. I no longer ask him why he seems upset. I no longer ask him how work is going. I no longer ask him anything about his friends or family. I no longer provide coaching for his relationship with the kids, although sadly this means that the relationship between him and the kids has deteriorated. He clearly is disconcerted that I no longer respond to him, but since we are divorced, he can't really demand it any longer. It's been liberating for me in terms of not being as exhausted. Ironically, just as I stopped supporting him, he found another woman to marry. I guess that is his way of solving his problem -- find some other woman to provide these services. I was hoping he would mature and learn to do these things himself, but oh well. It's a little sad for the kids in terms of their relationship with him, but I am now investing that emotional labor directly in my relationship with the kids and supporting them to have good relationships with other friends and family, so I think that is a better choice in the long run.

When I look back at previous relationships, I realize that uncompensated emotional labor was the huge problem in those relationships as well. My personal experience is that I just haven't found any men that get this on any level. And yet, I have been shocked by one or two male friends that have made simple gestures of friendship that show me that not all men are incapable of this. I have been single and uninterested in dating men for a long time since my divorce and have wondered if that was unhealthy, but this link shows me that it is a very normal, rational calculation based on an evaluation of investment versus return.

As I read this I also wondered -- how can we make this required reading for all marital therapists? Ha! That'll probably never happen.

Very insightful, OP, thanks for posting.

Anonymous wrote:http://www.metafilter.com/151267/Wheres-My-Cut-On-Unpaid-Emotional-Labor

I"m going to bet that 100% of woman can relate to this.

And that a mans reactions will be split three ways:

1) That's bullshit, just a bunch of women whining (defensive)
2) I don't understand (no interest in spending any time or energy in hearing from women about women)
3) Wow. Huh. I never realized... I never thought of it that way before... (OMG, HE'S A KEEPER!)

If you'd like a "greatest hits" from that very long discussion thread someone picked out the top responses and "condensed" the 2,000+ comments into a 70 page annotated Google doc pdf.

https://drive.google.com/a/paeaonline.org/file/d/0B0UUYL6kaNeBTDBRbkJkeUtabEk/view?pref=2&pli=1

Men - I dare you to read the entire thing. To take the time and effort to read it - and not sneer or dismiss, but read it. Pretend that somewhere in those comments your wife made a posting - try to guess which one is hers.

I sent it to my husband asking him to please read it (out of desperation, as 9 months of bringing these things up in therapy have gotten me nowhere) - that I knew it was long but that I thought it had a lot of good points ... and he didn't. Said it was too long. That he didn't understand it. And it just appeared to be woman complaining about things that women just do better anyway.

It felt like a little part of me died when he said that.

(side not - unrelated - wow, the commenters at MetaFilter are sure a lot more supportive that DCUM - either they moderate all the trolls and hateful comments out or people who are responding are doing so because they want to say something constructive and adds to the conversation, not wasting their own time and the readers by making comments that shoot down the previous poster for daring not support their marriage vows. Quite refreshing.)

Are you the socially awkward, not very successful with women fellow from last night who was looking for tips on how to pick up a woman you work with because you had tired of high priced escorts?

http://www.metafilter.com/151267/Wheres-My-Cut-On-Unpaid-Emotional-Labor

I"m going to bet that 100% of woman can relate to this.

And that a mans reactions will be split three ways:

1) That's bullshit, just a bunch of women whining (defensive)
2) I don't understand (no interest in spending any time or energy in hearing from women about women)
3) Wow. Huh. I never realized... I never thought of it that way before... (OMG, HE'S A KEEPER!)

If you'd like a "greatest hits" from that very long discussion thread someone picked out the top responses and "condensed" the 2,000+ comments into a 70 page annotated Google doc pdf.

https://drive.google.com/a/paeaonline.org/file/d/0B0UUYL6kaNeBTDBRbkJkeUtabEk/view?pref=2&pli=1

Men - I dare you to read the entire thing. To take the time and effort to read it - and not sneer or dismiss, but read it. Pretend that somewhere in those comments your wife made a posting - try to guess which one is hers.

I sent it to my husband asking him to please read it (out of desperation, as 9 months of bringing these things up in therapy have gotten me nowhere) - that I knew it was long but that I thought it had a lot of good points ... and he didn't. Said it was too long. That he didn't understand it. And it just appeared to be woman complaining about things that women just do better anyway.

It felt like a little part of me died when he said that.

(side not - unrelated - wow, the commenters at MetaFilter are sure a lot more supportive that DCUM - either they moderate all the trolls and hateful comments out or people who are responding are doing so because they want to say something constructive and adds to the conversation, not wasting their own time and the readers by making comments that shoot down the previous poster for daring not support their marriage vows. Quite refreshing.)