Anonymous
Post 10/07/2015 10:05     Subject: Re:Helping shy DD with class participation
In short with a 504, a teacher can grade your DD down for not doing an oral report or participating in class. Even if this is written in a 504 as an accommodation, teachers don't have to follow it, and you have no appeals process to make them.
Anonymous
Post 10/07/2015 08:22     Subject: Re:Helping shy DD with class participation
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:She should not be getting Fs in participation because she is too shy to speak. Social anxiety (and this is what it sounds like) is very difficult to manage. I think you should have her evaluated by a mental health professional and get this addressed in treatment. Meanwhile, speak to the teachers and explain what is going on and ask for help. If they understand what is going on, they can help. If they think she is just checked out, or doesn't care, they will mark her down. If you don't tell the teachers, they won't know what is going on.

I would definitely try to get it documented in the 504, and if that doesn't work, you need to ask the special education department chair what avenues you have to help the kid. Don't take no for an answer.

I was very shy as a kid, although not to that point. I know some kids that were like that, and they fell apart in college, since the underlying anxiety was not treated. It feels terrible internally to be so uncomfortable in class, even if the child is comfortable in other settings. She really needs professional help. If you explain to the school what is going, I would hope they would help. Good luck to your daughter, and please tell her it will get better.


Thank you for your response. She both can't (slow processing with a touch of ADD (un-medicated for now) and won't participate (shyness). Can you help me with what kind of accommodations I would ask for?

As for the PP who said 504 plans DO NOT include accommodations, ours does so I am looking for the words to put in her 504 to help her be successful with class participation.


Read the URL from Writghts Law, they can include them but they don't have to follow them:

1. Section 504 does not require written plans. Your school, school district or state may developed a policy of using a procedural safeguards in a written 504 plan that are similar to those in an IEP, they may follow them but are not required to do so.

2. Parents have few rights under Section 504.

3. The school does not have to invite the parent to the meeting when the 504 plan is developed. The school must notify the parent that a 504 plan was developed.

4. Section 504 has fewer procedural safeguards to protect the parent and child.

5. What appears to be discrimination may really not be discrimination.

6. Section 504 protections follows the child after s/he leaves the public school system. IDEA does not. So “shyness” and a “touch ADD” is not going to follow her. This is for kids who would need the physical accommodation like a wheel chair ramp.

It doesn't sound like you even have a handle on what causes her shyness. If you're "teaching" the teachers every year on how to reach her, you need to get her an evaluation and figure out what's going on even if she never gets an IEP. Get an advocate to help you learn the difference. It sounds like you've been trying to avoid an IEP b/c you're afraid of some label. Don't let this trip you up. Do what's best for her and obviously just having a 504 isn't cutting it.
Anonymous
Post 10/07/2015 07:29     Subject: Helping shy DD with class participation
Anonymous wrote:DD is in 8th grade in a high achieving school.... many A+ personalities.
[...]
This year she has 2 teachers that grade pretty seriously on class participation. Sadly, it appears that both teachers grade how many times a student contributes to a whole class discussion. She has received "Fs" for participation in 2 classes for the month of September.


I am one of those A+ personalities and the F I received for participation from the first teacher that graded on class participation was what got me out of my shell.
Had I been an 8th grader now, where things like that are being taken more seriously than 25 years ago, I would probably have been diagnosed with social anxiety and boarderline AS by 8th grade. But I am also extermely competitive, gifted and a straight A student. That F for me was a wake up call and what made me understand that no matter how shy or anxious I was, I HAD to participate in class to reach my standards.

Are you sure what your daughter has is "shyness"? I wholeheartedly agree with 20:40 to please have her evaluated by a mental health professional! I know that I would have benefited from having my anxiety treated at an early age. All I learned was to compensate for it but that really didn't help in the long run.
Anonymous
Post 10/06/2015 20:57     Subject: Re:Helping shy DD with class participation
Anonymous wrote:She should not be getting Fs in participation because she is too shy to speak. Social anxiety (and this is what it sounds like) is very difficult to manage. I think you should have her evaluated by a mental health professional and get this addressed in treatment. Meanwhile, speak to the teachers and explain what is going on and ask for help. If they understand what is going on, they can help. If they think she is just checked out, or doesn't care, they will mark her down. If you don't tell the teachers, they won't know what is going on.

I would definitely try to get it documented in the 504, and if that doesn't work, you need to ask the special education department chair what avenues you have to help the kid. Don't take no for an answer.

I was very shy as a kid, although not to that point. I know some kids that were like that, and they fell apart in college, since the underlying anxiety was not treated. It feels terrible internally to be so uncomfortable in class, even if the child is comfortable in other settings. She really needs professional help. If you explain to the school what is going, I would hope they would help. Good luck to your daughter, and please tell her it will get better.


Thank you for your response. She both can't (slow processing with a touch of ADD (un-medicated for now) and won't participate (shyness). Can you help me with what kind of accommodations I would ask for?

As for the PP who said 504 plans DO NOT include accommodations, ours does so I am looking for the words to put in her 504 to help her be successful with class participation.
Anonymous
Post 10/06/2015 20:40     Subject: Re:Helping shy DD with class participation
She should not be getting Fs in participation because she is too shy to speak. Social anxiety (and this is what it sounds like) is very difficult to manage. I think you should have her evaluated by a mental health professional and get this addressed in treatment. Meanwhile, speak to the teachers and explain what is going on and ask for help. If they understand what is going on, they can help. If they think she is just checked out, or doesn't care, they will mark her down. If you don't tell the teachers, they won't know what is going on.

I would definitely try to get it documented in the 504, and if that doesn't work, you need to ask the special education department chair what avenues you have to help the kid. Don't take no for an answer.

I was very shy as a kid, although not to that point. I know some kids that were like that, and they fell apart in college, since the underlying anxiety was not treated. It feels terrible internally to be so uncomfortable in class, even if the child is comfortable in other settings. She really needs professional help. If you explain to the school what is going, I would hope they would help. Good luck to your daughter, and please tell her it will get better.
Anonymous
Post 10/06/2015 20:31     Subject: Helping shy DD with class participation
Anonymous wrote:DD is in 8th grade in a high achieving school.... many A+ personalities.

DD is VERY shy talking with teachers when she needs help and rarely, if ever participates in class. She is certainly NOT going to jump in and interrupt anyone speaking to get her point across. When she was in FIFTH grade, the school's drama teacher told me that when DD was in KINDERGARTEN, DD NEVER spoke during drama class and would just stand on stage and the drama teacher was glad to see DD "coming out of her shell. (I knew she was shy but this information would have been helpful if I was informed on the extent of her shyness back then!!)

This year she has 2 teachers that grade pretty seriously on class participation. Sadly, it appears that both teachers grade how many times a student contributes to a whole class discussion. She has received "Fs" for participation in 2 classes for the month of September.

She has a 504 plan for organizational issues - extended time on tests, seating up front,etc....
How can I educate these teachers that they have to TEACH her how to participate, create a non-threatening environment, have patience, use encouragement and have different expectations at first about participation from her in comparison to the A+ personality kids. DD will feel more comfortable in the class if the teacher first went out of her/his way to make a connection with DD and then set her up in small steps.

Can I use her 504 plan for this? What accommodations can I have included in her 504 plan so that the teachers will HELP her learn how to participate and feel more comfortable doing so?

TIA
This is something that the school counselor can work with her on. Mention it during the next meeting to see if you can get her serviced.
Anonymous
Post 10/06/2015 20:24     Subject: Re:Helping shy DD with class participation
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:A 504 doesn't provide accommodations. It's purpose was to prevent discrimination, so for example, if your dd had a diagnosis of selective mutism and didn't answer verbally in class she wouldn't be penalized for not participating in class if she had a 504. An IEP would provide accommodations like to provide tests would be in written format not oral quizzes. (I'm not saying she has selective mutism, that's just to illustrate a point.)

OP, I would start the IEP process if she's having this much difficulty.

I would also consider getting a neuropsych evaluation. This will be an investment, but at least you'll understand the causes. Is it anxiety, does she have inattentive ADHD?

She might personally benefit from individual therapy, a social skills group, etc. It's okay to be introverted, but if it's getting in the way of her functioning at school she needs strategies she can use and official accommodations in school.


I don't think this is right. An IEP provides specialized education -- a pull-out group for reading, for example. A 504 provides accommodations, such as preferential seating or access to an elevator for someone with a mobility disability or a test with big font. Generally speaking, if it requires a person to provide extra time, it needs a IEP; if it's free, a 504.


NO. A 504 provides "accommodations" to prevent discrimination. So having wheel chair ramps could be considered an accommodation for a child in a wheelchair so your kid can enter and exit a building like everyone else...
http://www.wrightslaw.com/howey/504.idea.htm

Under 504, nothing has to be written, measured, you as a parents have fewer rights and re-course.

Seriously, why do people like PP "contribute" when they obviously don't know what they're talking about.


Speaking of people contributing when they don't know what they are talking about...

Yes, a wheelchair ramp could be a 504 accommodation. That's pretty equivalent to access to an elevator that I mentioned, or a test with big font or braille, or a sign language interpreter. It also can include preferential seating. It would not include a special educator providing individualized instruction to a student.

What part of what I've said do you actually disagree with?
Anonymous
Post 10/06/2015 19:43     Subject: Re:Helping shy DD with class participation
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:A 504 doesn't provide accommodations. It's purpose was to prevent discrimination, so for example, if your dd had a diagnosis of selective mutism and didn't answer verbally in class she wouldn't be penalized for not participating in class if she had a 504. An IEP would provide accommodations like to provide tests would be in written format not oral quizzes. (I'm not saying she has selective mutism, that's just to illustrate a point.)

OP, I would start the IEP process if she's having this much difficulty.

I would also consider getting a neuropsych evaluation. This will be an investment, but at least you'll understand the causes. Is it anxiety, does she have inattentive ADHD?

She might personally benefit from individual therapy, a social skills group, etc. It's okay to be introverted, but if it's getting in the way of her functioning at school she needs strategies she can use and official accommodations in school.


I don't think this is right. An IEP provides specialized education -- a pull-out group for reading, for example. A 504 provides accommodations, such as preferential seating or access to an elevator for someone with a mobility disability or a test with big font. Generally speaking, if it requires a person to provide extra time, it needs a IEP; if it's free, a 504.


NO. A 504 provides "accommodations" to prevent discrimination. So having wheel chair ramps could be considered an accommodation for a child in a wheelchair so your kid can enter and exit a building like everyone else...
http://www.wrightslaw.com/howey/504.idea.htm

Under 504, nothing has to be written, measured, you as a parents have fewer rights and re-course.

Seriously, why do people like PP "contribute" when they obviously don't know what they're talking about.
Anonymous
Post 10/06/2015 17:34     Subject: Re:Helping shy DD with class participation
Anonymous wrote:A 504 doesn't provide accommodations. It's purpose was to prevent discrimination, so for example, if your dd had a diagnosis of selective mutism and didn't answer verbally in class she wouldn't be penalized for not participating in class if she had a 504. An IEP would provide accommodations like to provide tests would be in written format not oral quizzes. (I'm not saying she has selective mutism, that's just to illustrate a point.)

OP, I would start the IEP process if she's having this much difficulty.

I would also consider getting a neuropsych evaluation. This will be an investment, but at least you'll understand the causes. Is it anxiety, does she have inattentive ADHD?

She might personally benefit from individual therapy, a social skills group, etc. It's okay to be introverted, but if it's getting in the way of her functioning at school she needs strategies she can use and official accommodations in school.


I don't think this is right. An IEP provides specialized education -- a pull-out group for reading, for example. A 504 provides accommodations, such as preferential seating or access to an elevator for someone with a mobility disability or a test with big font. Generally speaking, if it requires a person to provide extra time, it needs a IEP; if it's free, a 504.
Anonymous
Post 10/06/2015 17:24     Subject: Re:Helping shy DD with class participation
A 504 doesn't provide accommodations. It's purpose was to prevent discrimination, so for example, if your dd had a diagnosis of selective mutism and didn't answer verbally in class she wouldn't be penalized for not participating in class if she had a 504. An IEP would provide accommodations like to provide tests would be in written format not oral quizzes. (I'm not saying she has selective mutism, that's just to illustrate a point.)

OP, I would start the IEP process if she's having this much difficulty.

I would also consider getting a neuropsych evaluation. This will be an investment, but at least you'll understand the causes. Is it anxiety, does she have inattentive ADHD?

She might personally benefit from individual therapy, a social skills group, etc. It's okay to be introverted, but if it's getting in the way of her functioning at school she needs strategies she can use and official accommodations in school.
Anonymous
Post 10/06/2015 17:15     Subject: Re:Helping shy DD with class participation
Is the issue that she won't/can't volunteer in class or if she's called on, she won't/can't answer?

I would suggest building into her 504 that teachers will call on her X number of times a week and that after they call on her they give her extra time to collect her answer. They can even warn her that today is the day that she's going to be called on, unless the anticipation will make her anxious.
Anonymous
Post 10/06/2015 16:37     Subject: Helping shy DD with class participation
Anonymous wrote:This isn't a disability. She needs to up her self-esteem so she's confident talking to the teachers and in front of her peers.


Low self esteem and shyness are different from one another. A person can be shy and not have low self esteem. A person can have low self esteem and not be shy. Shyness has more to do with introversion and learned behaviors so that is why I believe teachers can help thus the question on how/if her 504 plan can be used.

Since her 504 centers around organization and slow processing, I see the connection between being able to successfully respond quickly when called on suddenly...getting thoughts processed and verbalized.

Accommodations should be allowed but what would they be?
Anonymous
Post 10/06/2015 16:36     Subject: Helping shy DD with class participation
I would call and ask them to. If she's failing they should help. Maybe the teacher can start by individual conversations, then say I am going to call on to answer X tomorrow. (That way she can practice her answer.) the she can practice speaking on front of the class while prepared and work up from there. I would hope the teachers have their own ideas.
Anonymous
Post 10/06/2015 16:22     Subject: Helping shy DD with class participation
This isn't a disability. She needs to up her self-esteem so she's confident talking to the teachers and in front of her peers.
Anonymous
Post 10/06/2015 16:19     Subject: Helping shy DD with class participation
DD is in 8th grade in a high achieving school.... many A+ personalities.

DD is VERY shy talking with teachers when she needs help and rarely, if ever participates in class. She is certainly NOT going to jump in and interrupt anyone speaking to get her point across. When she was in FIFTH grade, the school's drama teacher told me that when DD was in KINDERGARTEN, DD NEVER spoke during drama class and would just stand on stage and the drama teacher was glad to see DD "coming out of her shell. (I knew she was shy but this information would have been helpful if I was informed on the extent of her shyness back then!!)

This year she has 2 teachers that grade pretty seriously on class participation. Sadly, it appears that both teachers grade how many times a student contributes to a whole class discussion. She has received "Fs" for participation in 2 classes for the month of September.

She has a 504 plan for organizational issues - extended time on tests, seating up front,etc....
How can I educate these teachers that they have to TEACH her how to participate, create a non-threatening environment, have patience, use encouragement and have different expectations at first about participation from her in comparison to the A+ personality kids. DD will feel more comfortable in the class if the teacher first went out of her/his way to make a connection with DD and then set her up in small steps.

Can I use her 504 plan for this? What accommodations can I have included in her 504 plan so that the teachers will HELP her learn how to participate and feel more comfortable doing so?

TIA