Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a third grade teacher, and I usually hear from our AART at some point about which students are parent/teacher referrals and which students qualify on their own. It's pretty rare though that there is a kid we all know has no business being in who was pushed through by a savvy parent.

Either the admission process is a farce (in which case, a "savvy parent" can push a child through) OR the admission process is legitimate and therefore only kids who qualify get through. Which is it?

If there are 6+ people approving each child who is admitted in addition to standardized test scores, then tell me how, exactly, is a parent able to push their undeserving child through?

PP here--The admission process generally works just fine. However, when a kid with scores lower than 120 and mediocre GBRS gets in by parent referral (and one of the parents happens to have an inside scoop on the correct buzz words to use, etc.), an "undeserving" child can slip through. In the particular case I have in mind, the child returned to the base school mid-year, but the parents claimed it had nothing to do with academic rigor.

Anonymous wrote:PP you have analyzed the sytem very well and put some good infact great points.

Why does system allow parents to do referral is because parents spend most of time with kids than anyone else. And it is possible that parents might have noticed some traits in their children which others might not have.

But in current system what is happening is all parents are observing that their children aregifted. Can it be really true or is it just that parents want to put their kids in AAP for bragging rights or not be shameful saying their kid is GE or for whatever reasons known to them.

If you notice IQ of all children here start with 130
I never heard/read in this forum with IQs like 110 ,100,107. Though 100 is supposed to be most common.

Actually, average in FCPS is above 100, probably. Using the SAT's as a poxy, the average score in FCPS is about 1 standard deviation above the national average, or probably about 115.

At the reason why you don't see lower IQ's here is because 1) people lie, and 2) AAP kids will not have sub 115 IQ's/.

Anonymous wrote:I'm asking bc dh and I are having a disagreement about prepping my kid for the entry tests. Our child will qualify - but my husband thinks we should prep him anyway bc teachers will look at the scores for placement within aap. Our child hold can hold his own with 4th graders in math, reading, and is very talented in computer programming and we had discussions last year with the school about having him skip first grade so they school is aware. But I feel like it is a waste of time since he will likely crush the test without prep.

How do you know that your child WILL qualify?

There are a lot of other factors that will go on into getting accepted so you might not want to be so sure of yourself just yet.
If your think your child will qualify due to all the wonderfulness that you just posted, then don't prep! You'll have more bragging rights that way.

They become part of the student's cumulative file

Is this an actual paper file? I asked to see my kid's cumulative file and it was a bunch of papers. They said that was all there was, but they didn't act very cooperative. Had me wondering what might be available electronically that I wasn't seeing.

PP you have analyzed the sytem very well and put some good infact great points.

Why does system allow parents to do referral is because parents spend most of time with kids than anyone else. And it is possible that parents might have noticed some traits in their children which others might not have.

But in current system what is happening is all parents are observing that their children aregifted. Can it be really true or is it just that parents want to put their kids in AAP for bragging rights or not be shameful saying their kid is GE or for whatever reasons known to them.

If you notice IQ of all children here start with 130
I never heard/read in this forum with IQs like 110 ,100,107. Though 100 is supposed to be most common.

"Mistakes" of exclusion can happen in a legitimate screening process, but "mistakes" of "inclusion" based on pushy parents? That doesn't make sense.

If the tests are valid, that means they are highly correlated with kids who have the ability to do the work that is given. Pushy parents aren't going to affect the STANDARDIZED test scores that all applicants must have in order to be considered. (let's not get into "prepping" -- since, in the end, the kid has to score well or not. If you are relying totally on prepping, please provide data showing that prepping can increase scores by more than a 5 percentage points).

Are you suggesting that pushy parents influence teacher recommendations and that those faulty recommendations outweigh test scores? If so, then the fault is on the teacher/AART for being swayed and the faulty process of allowing subjective recommendations to outweigh otherwise sub-standard test scores.

If six or more reviewers AGREE that the child is qualified, then it's not about "pushy parents" -- how exactly are your supposed pushy parents influencing the committee??

Sure, some kids don't stick with the program or have times when they are overwhelmed. But, is that a matter of the school pushing too hard when it isn't necessary? (i.e. expecting all kids to know their multiplication tables on day 1 of 4th grade -- not necessary; just making kids feel bad for not studying them all summer) Is it a matter of the parents not supporting the child at home? Is it a matter of maturity or temperament in not handling challenges and the unknown well?

There are various reasons why AAP might not be right for a given child -- that doesn't mean the child got there by way of a "pushy parent."

Either the objective test scores and the teacher observations/recs, and the approval of the committee members are valid indicators of ability, -- therefore pushy parents really can't have any significant effect on the process, OR the process is a farce and people should just get pushy to get their kids in.

It's a red-herring to blame the struggles of some AAP kids on "pushy parents." There are other more likely reason why kids might struggle at times in AAP or drop out of the program.

Yes, mistakes definitely happen. My neighbor's child was in the pool but was not initially accepted. They did testing at GMU and appealed and the child was then accepted. I think it was probably a mistake, because years later the child was on the National Merit Semifinalist list and ended up getting a National Merit scholarship.

Clearly, the initial non-acceptance was a mistake. The parents thought their child needed the program, so had the testing done for the appeal. They are not pushy people, they just wanted their child to be appropriately placed. As it turned out, that child really did belong in the GT/AAP program, even though the initial reviewers didn't appear to think so. Mistakes do happen and it is good that we have a review system.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a third grade teacher, and I usually hear from our AART at some point about which students are parent/teacher referrals and which students qualify on their own. It's pretty rare though[u] that there is a kid we all know has no business being in who was pushed through by a savvy parent.

Either the admission process is a farce (in which case, a "savvy parent" can push a child through) OR the admission process is legitimate and therefore only kids who qualify get through. Which is it?

If there are 6+ people approving each child who is admitted in addition to standardized test scores, then tell me how, exactly, is a parent able to push their undeserving child through?

Isn't it possible to have a third option: mistakes slip through the cracks. Doctors inadvertently don't diagnose a malignancy. Lawyers forget to file an important document on time. A kid is approved when he shouldn't be. (By "shouldn't be," that could be defined as him having an amazingly high IQ but zero ability to do the work (maybe OCD, maybe lazy, maybe high anxiety,etc.) - so reasonable minds could differ as to whether the kid should be in. Regardless. it isn't as black and white as you're trying to make it. Since the teacher said it is "rare" this occurs, why on earth would you think the admission process is a farce?

Anonymous wrote:I'm a third grade teacher, and I usually hear from our AART at some point about which students are parent/teacher referrals and which students qualify on their own. It's pretty rare though that there is a kid we all know has no business being in who was pushed through by a savvy parent.

Either the admission process is a farce (in which case, a "savvy parent" can push a child through) OR the admission process is legitimate and therefore only kids who qualify get through. Which is it?

If there are 6+ people approving each child who is admitted in addition to standardized test scores, then tell me how, exactly, is a parent able to push their undeserving child through?

I'm a third grade teacher, and I usually hear from our AART at some point about which students are parent/teacher referrals and which students qualify on their own. It's pretty rare though that there is a kid we all know has no business being in who was pushed through by a savvy parent.

I'm asking bc dh and I are having a disagreement about prepping my kid for the entry tests. Our child will qualify - but my husband thinks we should prep him anyway bc teachers will look at the scores for placement within aap. Our child hold can hold his own with 4th graders in math, reading, and is very talented in computer programming and we had discussions last year with the school about having him skip first grade so they school is aware. But I feel like it is a waste of time since he will likely crush the test without prep.

Why do you want to know?

They become part of the student's cumulative file, so the information is available if you want it. I don't know of anyone who specifically looks through the information for every kid, though. If I'm seeing some sort of struggle with a student (in any of my classes), I will look through the file to see what I can learn, and this score is part of that narrative. That's about it, though, from my experience.

I know my kids' WISC-IV scores were reviewed as part of 504 Plan meetings with teachers, counselors, etc.

Do aap teachers review naglieri and cogat scores of new aap students? And read appeals? Just wondering if these scores mean anything once they are into the program. Like is it used for further grouping?