Anonymous wrote:Most of you would say the same thing about enlisting in the military right out of high school. My nephew actually enlisted at the beginning of his senior year, and I believe that's the only reason he graduated. Five years later, he has a solid career with the Navy, no debt, huge savings and he's seen half the world.

The military is very different. There are many pathways to upward mobility in the miliarty. Much less so as a mechanic.

I think you're speaking of your own circle, and the circles of middle class and upper class circles of America.

There are tons of communities and groups of people in this country who are proud and happy to have vocational opportunities and post-secondary training that sets them up for a decent earning career, without college.

Most of you would say the same thing about enlisting in the military right out of high school. My nephew actually enlisted at the beginning of his senior year, and I believe that's the only reason he graduated. Five years later, he has a solid career with the Navy, no debt, huge savings and he's seen half the world.

My husband works with a lot of federal and state agencies, community colleges and industrial partners who are worried about the so-called skills gap. (I am trying my best describe the bits and pieces I hear from him!) As I understand it, a lot of manufacturers in the USA are facing the impending retirement of their skilled labor within the next decade. Some of them don't want to or can't send their manufacturing off to China or Mexico, etc. So there are movements afoot to get industry to collaborate with community colleges to create work-study apprenticeship models, not too dissimilar from what makes German-speaking countries so successful at manufacturing and exporting high-tech goods. Young adults are going through these programs already and while they are not (yet) leaving with a Bachelor's degree, they are getting trained and put into skilled jobs; some I think do leave with an Associate's degree as well. They are making more money with a much lower debt load. They are buying cars and houses and are living the American dream, all in their early-to-mid 20s!

But a problem my husband encounters everywhere is the parents. Even those that work with these successful community colleges, federal and state agencies, etc. They all agree that kids in the US need a second option, a second path to success, one that rebuilds American manufacturing but at the end of the day, they want it for their neighbor's child and not their own.

Then you are targeting the wrong parents. Parents who can shell out $40 K a year for college are not going to be interested, but why do you need those families to make the programs successful?

Is this a homework assignment?

Obviously, the kids who benefit from this are not chosing between Stanford and an apprenticeship. Generally, not the DCUM demographic. They are chosing between no college and an apprenticeship, or a fraudulent for profit "college" and an apprenticeship.

I disagree with the premise. Basic college (even community college) is now what high school was fifty years ago - an entry level education. I would go as far as to say that all kids need at least an Associate degree before entering any trade school.

Just my opinion. The world has changed.

Anonymous wrote:Lets take this a step further.

We also need people to work as cashiers and gas station attendants, yet those jobs are looked down upon and even some people who are unemployed won't consider that type of work. It doesn't make a person worth less to have a job that requires no education or experience. Society however, has trained us to think we needed to be more.

These jobs would be more of an option if they paid a living wage.

Anonymous wrote:

So I guess my question for you all is, what would put your mind at ease? What would convince you that these other paths are "good enough" and viable as an alternative to the traditional four-year college for YOUR child? Why is the 4-year Bachelor's the only option for your child?

It's not.

Lets take this a step further.

We also need people to work as cashiers and gas station attendants, yet those jobs are looked down upon and even some people who are unemployed won't consider that type of work. It doesn't make a person worth less to have a job that requires no education or experience. Society however, has trained us to think we needed to be more.

Skilled jobs like this pay well to begin with. The salaries, though, flatten out pretty quickly unless you move up into management. They also aren't jobs you can do for a whole career. Once a guy hits 50, being a plumber or cable installer gets harder and harder, as the years of heavy lifting and squeezing into tight spaces takes its toll. Most of the men I know who have gone this route have hit a physical wall in their 40s or 50s. Many women don't have the upper body strength to do this stuff, although some do.

If my child were not academic, I might consider a path like this, but I would encourage him to move into management/ownership ASAP, even if that meant struggling through some business or accounting classes.

If the CEOs and the high level managers also took this path, I would be sold. But if your CEOs and high level managers all have Bachelor and Masters degrees... you don't even believe in these kids/this path.

Most government jobs no need degree cut those requirement first

Is this a homework assignment?

Obviously, the kids who benefit from this are not chosing between Stanford and an apprenticeship. Generally, not the DCUM demographic. They are chosing between no college and an apprenticeship, or a fraudulent for profit "college" and an apprenticeship.

Great question. I see what you're getting at. Our daughter, for example, is intelligent but also struggles in school because of ADHD. To be honest, if it were more socially normative to have her on a non-college track I'd consider it. Right now most of her peers will go to college, even if they aren't the greatest students and could be more successful and productive working in an apprenticeship model program. I guess social pressure plays a role in steering us in the direction of college?

So my answer to your question would be this. If the US created more of these apprenticeship programs and it became commonplace for kids to enter them -- even kids from middle and upper-middle class families -- then I'd be more likely to consider it an option for my child.

I know there are a lot of us here who have kids/teens who feel the college experience looming ahead. Some of our kids are looking forward to it and should go this route. Others are not and probably deserve a second path to success. And I am sure ALL of us are dreading having to pay for it.

My husband works with a lot of federal and state agencies, community colleges and industrial partners who are worried about the so-called skills gap. (I am trying my best describe the bits and pieces I hear from him!) As I understand it, a lot of manufacturers in the USA are facing the impending retirement of their skilled labor within the next decade. Some of them don't want to or can't send their manufacturing off to China or Mexico, etc. So there are movements afoot to get industry to collaborate with community colleges to create work-study apprenticeship models, not too dissimilar from what makes German-speaking countries so successful at manufacturing and exporting high-tech goods. Young adults are going through these programs already and while they are not (yet) leaving with a Bachelor's degree, they are getting trained and put into skilled jobs; some I think do leave with an Associate's degree as well. They are making more money with a much lower debt load. They are buying cars and houses and are living the American dream, all in their early-to-mid 20s!

But a problem my husband encounters everywhere is the parents. Even those that work with these successful community colleges, federal and state agencies, etc. They all agree that kids in the US need a second option, a second path to success, one that rebuilds American manufacturing but at the end of the day, they want it for their neighbor's child and not their own.

So I guess my question for you all is, what would put your mind at ease? What would convince you that these other paths are "good enough" and viable as an alternative to the traditional four-year college for YOUR child? Why is the 4-year Bachelor's the only option for your child?