Similar dynamic, now divorced. I imagine your marriage can be saved, but only if you are both willing to treat saving your marriage as your new part time job. If you guys both know you are in a bad place, but you can imagine finding one hour when you can both be in a room with a therapist that, in retrospect, is a huge red flag-and you are going to need a lot more than that hour. Divorce is hard and expensive and, at least in the short term, it does not make you happier or give your more time or make your life feel like less work. So if you want to save your marriage, make the effort.

Anonymous wrote:Sounds like you'd be better off divorced- the main things you fight about now wouldn't be issues then, at least not to the same degree. He won't change since he's always been this way, it's just grating on your nerves now. The mother issue is a real and big one and if he won't stand up for you there then there isn't much you can do.

Two people who can't get along having to navigate custody and visitation? I can just picture his mother getting involved in that process. I don't see divorce being easier.

I whole heartedly recommend the Gottman book. We have a similar dynamic (not the mother part) and I am always struggling with feeling like my husband is just another child to take care of.

Prior to the arrival of #2, we started seeing a marriage therapist and she saw this dynamic within the first 10 seconds. She was helpful, but I don't think we made too much progress during the sessions. It only emphasized what I always knew -- I'm the one who gets things done, and my husband prefers to be in the role of just following along.

So after baby #2 arrived, we didn't have time for counseling, and I was back to work full-time after not too long, and these issues were annoying me more than ever. I ordered two copies of John Gottman's book the Seven Principles for Making Marriage work and to my husband I said something like "I am tired of having to make all the decisions. I am exhausted. I cannot muster the energy to come up with a complex plan to make our marriage work and regain the happiness we once had. But I found this book, and people swear by it, so let us both read it and we can both tackle this together."

And so we started reading. And then we started talking. And then we started listening. I have to work hard to not sound cold/"mean", but I've been working on it in exchange for him working on cutting me some slack in the tone department. There is a great section of this book on solvable problems -- and that is where most of our problems fell, since they centered on how to get sh*t done in our lives.

Overall, things aren't 100% better, but they are hugely improved! We no longer have emotionally charged arguments stemming from my comment about taking out the trash. I still feel that I do 80% of the planning/coordinating, but its not 100%. And we've only been working on these things for about 6-7 months, so I'm hoping my number will continue to decrease!!

So wishing you lots of luck. It sucks when you feel like your husband is just another person sucking your time/energy.

Tackling the mother thing is a whole different ballgame ...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are us, with roles reversed. Read Gottmann or another book on communication styles - it really makes a huge difference in better structuring conversations, and in learning how to ensure you're both actually talking about the same issue. And have you tried communicating issue in writing - email, text, etc.? I know lots of people will say texting is a terrible format for hashing stuff out but it actually works really, really well for us since it removes the whole issue of tone and nonverbal communication.

On the 'help' vs taking charge - can you explicitly lay out who is responsible for what and then just let his stuff go?

And on the mother front - are you asking him to not talk about you at all or being very explicit about it just being with his mother? If he's the type who needs to talk through stuff then giving him permission to talk about you to someone else is really important. However it's also very valid for you to say that his mom has proven untrustworthy with that information and to ask him to talk about that kind of stuff with someone else (a best friend?) that you can also trust with the information.

Sadly, some of our worst arguments are via text and e-mail. I once suggested that we communicate in writing in order to remove the tone/body language issue, but as it turns out, a sensitive person can still glean tone from words. I used to see him is overemotional and whining, but I now realize that we just have entirely, completely different communication styles. If he was with someone as emotional as him, they would be able to discuss without difficulty. If I was with someone as logical and focused as me, we would move mountains with how much we could get done. But we are with each other and our styles are polar opposites. Whether e-mailing or texting or on the phone, we fight every single day about his perception that I am mean and my perception that he is a poor listener who is itching to take offense.

The problem with laying out who is responsible for what is that it still requires me to come up with a plan. I work very long hours too and having to singlehandedly come up with a plan of attack and then delegate tasks is very tiring. It doesn't help that he is also lacking in detail orientation, so when I insist on leaving planning to him, it is done poorly. We end up paying too much or getting double charged or he misses some crucial caveat that results in penalties or last minute scrambling. He readily admits that he is bad at planning and misses most details, but when I work as hard as I do, he becomes another liability to me.

I agree that he needs a new best friend. Unfortunately, mother dearest is as emotionally stifling and clingy as they come. She is the definition of the toxic Jewish mother.

It probably can't be saved because you think that your way of thinking is superior (you'd be able to move mountains with someone like you, he'd be able to...discuss things? And you need to be in control of the outcomes.

Anonymous wrote:Not so much advice, but I just wanted to say that I can commiserate. Not so much about the mother thing but the other dynamic you describe is me and my husband exactly. I too am tired of taking the reins, solving the problems, doing the organizing, doing the research, doing everything. We just got back from a trip for Spring Break. When he initially suggested the trip to visit a sibling in another state in a cool city, I said, "OK, you do the planning and just let us know when we're leaving." I really wanted this one vaca to be on him, but he didn't lift a finger. I genuinely feel like I have three children instead of two. And like you, OP, I love him, but I really feel like a single parent. And he throws up roadblocks and criticizes all suggestions and decisions without doing any of the work to the point where I don't really tell him much of anything. I find myself doing my own thing more and more and I know that in the longterm this is bad for my marriage, but I just so tired of dealing with his reactions. I can tell him 8 times that we need to leave at "x time" for an event, and five minutes before we are to leave he's still sitting with his computer on the coach, unshowered. So, I've started doing they whole, "you don't have to go...I'll just take the kids by myself." Sorry to hijack. Just saying that I get it.

Thank you for commiserating. It really is nice to hear that someone else can relate. I know that other couples face the same issues, but I am not the type to air my dirty laundry, so I don't really have these conversations with others. As far as feeling that DH is another child in the relationship, that is exactly how I feel. He is like the worst of a child -- dependent, whining, demanding of attention -- but then he wants equal say in things. The one area in which DH truly excels is vacation planning, but that just pisses me off sometimes because it shows that he is capable of detail orientation and planning when he really wants something. Yet, he cannot muster the same abilities in the less fun, mundane tasks that make our lives run.

Anonymous wrote:You are us, with roles reversed. Read Gottmann or another book on communication styles - it really makes a huge difference in better structuring conversations, and in learning how to ensure you're both actually talking about the same issue. And have you tried communicating issue in writing - email, text, etc.? I know lots of people will say texting is a terrible format for hashing stuff out but it actually works really, really well for us since it removes the whole issue of tone and nonverbal communication.

On the 'help' vs taking charge - can you explicitly lay out who is responsible for what and then just let his stuff go?

And on the mother front - are you asking him to not talk about you at all or being very explicit about it just being with his mother? If he's the type who needs to talk through stuff then giving him permission to talk about you to someone else is really important. However it's also very valid for you to say that his mom has proven untrustworthy with that information and to ask him to talk about that kind of stuff with someone else (a best friend?) that you can also trust with the information.

Sadly, some of our worst arguments are via text and e-mail. I once suggested that we communicate in writing in order to remove the tone/body language issue, but as it turns out, a sensitive person can still glean tone from words. I used to see him is overemotional and whining, but I now realize that we just have entirely, completely different communication styles. If he was with someone as emotional as him, they would be able to discuss without difficulty. If I was with someone as logical and focused as me, we would move mountains with how much we could get done. But we are with each other and our styles are polar opposites. Whether e-mailing or texting or on the phone, we fight every single day about his perception that I am mean and my perception that he is a poor listener who is itching to take offense.

The problem with laying out who is responsible for what is that it still requires me to come up with a plan. I work very long hours too and having to singlehandedly come up with a plan of attack and then delegate tasks is very tiring. It doesn't help that he is also lacking in detail orientation, so when I insist on leaving planning to him, it is done poorly. We end up paying too much or getting double charged or he misses some crucial caveat that results in penalties or last minute scrambling. He readily admits that he is bad at planning and misses most details, but when I work as hard as I do, he becomes another liability to me.

I agree that he needs a new best friend. Unfortunately, mother dearest is as emotionally stifling and clingy as they come. She is the definition of the toxic Jewish mother.

Sounds like you'd be better off divorced- the main things you fight about now wouldn't be issues then, at least not to the same degree. He won't change since he's always been this way, it's just grating on your nerves now. The mother issue is a real and big one and if he won't stand up for you there then there isn't much you can do.

My husband and I have similar communication issues and have been able to resolve most of them through therapy and the techniques in the scream-free marriage book (we aren't screamers but the book still helped). My husband works long hours too, I told him he needed to figure it out and he did.
The mama's boy stuff is something I couldn't get past, you may be able to but I consider it the reddest of flags.

About how you argue, something stood out. I literally can't think during arguments when my DH raises his voice. I don't know why, but that's what it is. Sounds like your DH is that way too. I wasn't raised with anyone ever yelling in my household and I just can't pay attention when someone's voice gets raised.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Aren't you happy he works so much? Find a way to contract out as much of your family life as possible. Develop your own close relationships outside of marriage.

Huh? How will having no family life possibly lead a couple to happiness?

It will lead her to individual happiness. I know, because that's the path I took.

Not so much advice, but I just wanted to say that I can commiserate. Not so much about the mother thing but the other dynamic you describe is me and my husband exactly. I too am tired of taking the reins, solving the problems, doing the organizing, doing the research, doing everything. We just got back from a trip for Spring Break. When he initially suggested the trip to visit a sibling in another state in a cool city, I said, "OK, you do the planning and just let us know when we're leaving." I really wanted this one vaca to be on him, but he didn't lift a finger. I genuinely feel like I have three children instead of two. And like you, OP, I love him, but I really feel like a single parent. And he throws up roadblocks and criticizes all suggestions and decisions without doing any of the work to the point where I don't really tell him much of anything. I find myself doing my own thing more and more and I know that in the longterm this is bad for my marriage, but I just so tired of dealing with his reactions. I can tell him 8 times that we need to leave at "x time" for an event, and five minutes before we are to leave he's still sitting with his computer on the coach, unshowered. So, I've started doing they whole, "you don't have to go...I'll just take the kids by myself." Sorry to hijack. Just saying that I get it.

Anonymous wrote:Aren't you happy he works so much? Find a way to contract out as much of your family life as possible. Develop your own close relationships outside of marriage.

Huh? How will having no family life possibly lead a couple to happiness?

You are us, with roles reversed. Read Gottmann or another book on communication styles - it really makes a huge difference in better structuring conversations, and in learning how to ensure you're both actually talking about the same issue. And have you tried communicating issue in writing - email, text, etc.? I know lots of people will say texting is a terrible format for hashing stuff out but it actually works really, really well for us since it removes the whole issue of tone and nonverbal communication.

On the 'help' vs taking charge - can you explicitly lay out who is responsible for what and then just let his stuff go?

And on the mother front - are you asking him to not talk about you at all or being very explicit about it just being with his mother? If he's the type who needs to talk through stuff then giving him permission to talk about you to someone else is really important. However it's also very valid for you to say that his mom has proven untrustworthy with that information and to ask him to talk about that kind of stuff with someone else (a best friend?) that you can also trust with the information.

Aren't you happy he works so much? Find a way to contract out as much of your family life as possible. Develop your own close relationships outside of marriage.

DH and I differ on a lot of issues. I am a private, type A, logical, and I initiate solutions. DH confides a lot in his parents and social circle, is type B, emotional, and tends to wait for me to come up with plans to solve our problems.

From matters as simple as cleaning up the house to creating a budget to planning our move, DH will not take the first step until I sit him down and say "you know we have xyz coming up and here is how we are going to go about it." What once seemed like a pleasant demeanor has started to look a lot more like laziness and lack of initiative over the years because now that we have children and busy careers, having to singlehandedly shoulder responsibility for tackling every task and issue in our lives adds a lot of work to my plate. DH's response when I bring this up is to say some version of "Just tell me what to do and I will do it. I'm here to help." Waiting to be told what to do is, of course, is the whole problem. I want an equal partner who takes ownership, not a subordinate who takes orders.

DH tends to personalize things, whereas I can be coldly rational. If I initiate a discussion about how to get something done, my tone has to be warm and nonthreatening, or he will get caught up in how I am being "mean" and then the whole conversation devolves. I once saw this as adorable and sweet, but now I see it as often childish. I am the type who focuses on the point of the message. This can make me blunt and cold in my delivery. DH's hurt feelings are often valid.

I do not trust DH's family. My intuition is very strong and I am very observant. Years ago, I believed his mother did not like me and I noticed his extended family accidentally dropping small details about my personal life into their convos with me in a way that suggested to me that someone was blabbing my business. Well, I told DH it was his mother and, in a series of arguments, he said some very cruel things to me in defense of her. Turned out I was right. That created a real wound between DH and I that has yet to heal because his mother disclosed details of very painful things in my own family and also badmouthed me. I have also continued to play nice with his mother, but have yet to forgive her because she just cried and played the victim when confronted. She also continues to gossip about everyone while claiming she no longer gossips about me. I don't believe her. This is a problem in itself, but it is an even bigger problem because his mother is DH's closest confidant. Every time I tell him not to tell her something about me, it results in a fight. I have started withholding info from DH and DH knows this and is hurt. But I cannot trust him if he is going to go blab to his untrustworthy mother.

In short, DH and I are just so different that in small and big things, we get on each other's nerves. We fight every day. Sometimes multiple times a day. If not for our children, I would probably throw in the towel. But I grew up as a child of divorce, with parents who couldn't get along even for the sake of their children. Everything in me wants to hang on for dear life and make this work somehow. We also have something else going for us: Despite all of this, we really do love each other. But we just can't get along and our personalities are diametric opposites.

DH works 16 hour days, so I do not know how to fit in counseling. I am not even sure if it will help. Any ideas?