Why would jews chose to be bound by laws of a god they didn't believe in? Genesis 15:6 seems to say that Abraham believed in God as one example. One translation: "Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness" another "Abram put his faith in the Lord, who attributed it to him as an act of righteousness." There are several covenants and this one with Abraham was with an individual.

The covenenant that is the basis of chosenness is the one at Sinai.

Regarding the covenant in Exodus, there seem to be a lot of things tied to this agreement by both God and jews. Not just an outright promise despite not obeying or believing in him. "Now, if you obey me completely and keep my covenant, you will be my treasured possession among all peoples, though all the earth is mine. 6 You will be to me a kingdom of priests, a holy nation. That is what you must tell the Israelites." What covenant discusses a covenant given to or accepted by the Israelites without any kind of attachment back to God?

Of course the covenant is based on attachment to God. But an individual descended from the people does not escape the covenant, nor the binding quality of the law (which is NOT binding on non-Jews) by rejecting the covenant.

Israelites are punished repeatedly for idolatry. Gentiles are not - they are punished only for specific sins, especially for things they do to Israel. Why? Because they are not subject to the covenant as Jews are - even when they commit idolatry.

Also, with Exodus, if there was no god, what did the people of Israel even here? Which leads to the question, why would they accept the covenant if they didn't hear anything?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My Dad says that many Jews do not believe in God. Is that true? If it is, why would anyone who does not believe in God call themselves Jewish (or any other religion).

Ps. I myself am atheist / agnostic.

Jewish was a people before it was a "religion"

"you shall be my people, and I shall be your G-d" Implies that first the Jews were a people, then they accepted, as a people G-d's covenant. They accepted the covenant on behalf of themselves and their descendants so anyone who is of Jewish descent is bound by it, whether they believe G-d exists or not.

That is the religious Jewish answer.

The non religious answers is that the Jews are a people like any other - and you can be any religion or nonreligion and be Jewish. The real question for those is why are atheists more likely to be accepted as Jews, than Jews who covert to Christianity or Islam. The answer, I think is that Jews who because atheists historically contained to live with the Jewish community, behind legally mandated ghetto walls. Converts to Christianity were, by law, not allowed to live in the Jewish ghetto or have contact with Jews, so conversion represented a turning of ones back on the community in a more profound way.

There is a person in the AMA jewish post that has said something different. Are you agreeing with each other or disagreeing and why?

"I believe that there is a contradiction in saying Jews are "chosen" if there is no G-d. What does that mean? Who can do the choosing? OTOH I cannot control the logic other people use.

There are certainly secular Jews who are proud of their heritage. But that is not chosenness"

I am that PP, and you seem to misunderstand me again. I do not know why. Chosenness implied a chooser. That is true in Hebrew, as in English. No chooser, no chosenness. I can think of several non-theistic Jewish thinkers (like Achad Ha Am) and none of them state the Jews are chosen. And yes, pride does not imply chosenness.

For example some people think the US was chosen by G-d to be a City on a Hill. I am proud of the US, but I doubt that the US was "chosen" by G-d. I am not sure why that distinction is so difficult.

"some people think the US was chosen by G-d to be a City on a Hill" ??? Maybe in your circles. Never heard of this in my life and obviously the constitution speaks nothing of this. I am not sure why you need to be quite so condescending in all of your remarks. For someone who thinks others are so stupid, why bother to reply?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Do jews really believe that God somehow just chose them as a people despite whether they believed in him or not?

The Jews as a people, as a collective, affirmed that they wanted to be bound by his laws (belief that he existed is not presented as really a question in Genesis - people believed in the existence of gods whom they did not follow). But they bound themselves and their descendants, without condition.

Why would jews chose to be bound by laws of a god they didn't believe in? Genesis 15:6 seems to say that Abraham believed in God as one example. One translation: "Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness" another "Abram put his faith in the Lord, who attributed it to him as an act of righteousness." There are several covenants and this one with Abraham was with an individual. Regarding the covenant in Exodus, there seem to be a lot of things tied to this agreement by both God and jews. Not just an outright promise despite not obeying or believing in him. "Now, if you obey me completely and keep my covenant, you will be my treasured possession among all peoples, though all the earth is mine. 6 You will be to me a kingdom of priests, a holy nation. That is what you must tell the Israelites." What covenant discusses a covenant given to or accepted by the Israelites without any kind of attachment back to God?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My Dad says that many Jews do not believe in God. Is that true? If it is, why would anyone who does not believe in God call themselves Jewish (or any other religion).

Ps. I myself am atheist / agnostic.

Jewish was a people before it was a "religion"

"you shall be my people, and I shall be your G-d" Implies that first the Jews were a people, then they accepted, as a people G-d's covenant. They accepted the covenant on behalf of themselves and their descendants so anyone who is of Jewish descent is bound by it, whether they believe G-d exists or not.

That is the religious Jewish answer.

The non religious answers is that the Jews are a people like any other - and you can be any religion or nonreligion and be Jewish. The real question for those is why are atheists more likely to be accepted as Jews, than Jews who covert to Christianity or Islam. The answer, I think is that Jews who because atheists historically contained to live with the Jewish community, behind legally mandated ghetto walls. Converts to Christianity were, by law, not allowed to live in the Jewish ghetto or have contact with Jews, so conversion represented a turning of ones back on the community in a more profound way.

There is a person in the AMA jewish post that has said something different. Are you agreeing with each other or disagreeing and why?

"I believe that there is a contradiction in saying Jews are "chosen" if there is no G-d. What does that mean? Who can do the choosing? OTOH I cannot control the logic other people use.

There are certainly secular Jews who are proud of their heritage. But that is not chosenness"

I am that PP, and you seem to misunderstand me again. I do not know why. Chosenness implied a chooser. That is true in Hebrew, as in English. No chooser, no chosenness. I can think of several non-theistic Jewish thinkers (like Achad Ha Am) and none of them state the Jews are chosen. And yes, pride does not imply chosenness.

For example some people think the US was chosen by G-d to be a City on a Hill. I am proud of the US, but I doubt that the US was "chosen" by G-d. I am not sure why that distinction is so difficult.

God in the bible seems to chose people who agreed to believe in him

he chose the Jews as a nation, because they agreed to follow his laws. This is not about choosing individuals.

and do as he asked and as a result God gave them help to lead. He wiped out entire jewish cities because those people didn't believe in him.

He wiped them out because they commited idolatry. And that does not mean they were not Jews. They were Jews, who committed a crime merting death.

Only a few jews were allowed to enter the promised land.

No, massive numbers did. But not the generation that came out of Egypt.

It doesn't sound like he just accepted them as chosen people outright.

They continued to be the chosen people even when they sinned, and even when they were punished for sinning. I think you misunderstand what chosenness means. Its not all puppies and butterflies.

Just curious. Why were Christians not allowed by jews to have contact with other jews?

Because Jews were forced to live apart, so that their ideas did not contaminate gentiles and lead them away from Christianity. I suggest you read some jewish history - there are many good books out there. For someone who claims to have grown up surrounded by Jews, there are many elementary things you do not know.

Anonymous wrote:
Do jews really believe that God somehow just chose them as a people despite whether they believed in him or not?

The Jews as a people, as a collective, affirmed that they wanted to be bound by his laws (belief that he existed is not presented as really a question in Genesis - people believed in the existence of gods whom they did not follow). But they bound themselves and their descendants, without condition.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My Dad says that many Jews do not believe in God. Is that true? If it is, why would anyone who does not believe in God call themselves Jewish (or any other religion).

Ps. I myself am atheist / agnostic.

Jewish was a people before it was a "religion"

"you shall be my people, and I shall be your G-d" Implies that first the Jews were a people, then they accepted, as a people G-d's covenant. They accepted the covenant on behalf of themselves and their descendants so anyone who is of Jewish descent is bound by it, whether they believe G-d exists or not.

That is the religious Jewish answer.

The non religious answers is that the Jews are a people like any other - and you can be any religion or nonreligion and be Jewish. The real question for those is why are atheists more likely to be accepted as Jews, than Jews who covert to Christianity or Islam. The answer, I think is that Jews who because atheists historically contained to live with the Jewish community, behind legally mandated ghetto walls. Converts to Christianity were, by law, not allowed to live in the Jewish ghetto or have contact with Jews, so conversion represented a turning of ones back on the community in a more profound way.

There is a person in the AMA jewish post that has said something different. Are you agreeing with each other or disagreeing and why?

"I believe that there is a contradiction in saying Jews are "chosen" if there is no G-d. What does that mean? Who can do the choosing? OTOH I cannot control the logic other people use.

There are certainly secular Jews who are proud of their heritage. But that is not chosenness"

Two Jews, three opinions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My Dad says that many Jews do not believe in God. Is that true? If it is, why would anyone who does not believe in God call themselves Jewish (or any other religion).

Ps. I myself am atheist / agnostic.

Jewish was a people before it was a "religion"

"you shall be my people, and I shall be your G-d" Implies that first the Jews were a people, then they accepted, as a people G-d's covenant. They accepted the covenant on behalf of themselves and their descendants so anyone who is of Jewish descent is bound by it, whether they believe G-d exists or not.

That is the religious Jewish answer.

The non religious answers is that the Jews are a people like any other - and you can be any religion or nonreligion and be Jewish. The real question for those is why are atheists more likely to be accepted as Jews, than Jews who covert to Christianity or Islam. The answer, I think is that Jews who because atheists historically contained to live with the Jewish community, behind legally mandated ghetto walls. Converts to Christianity were, by law, not allowed to live in the Jewish ghetto or have contact with Jews, so conversion represented a turning of ones back on the community in a more profound way.

There is a person in the AMA jewish post that has said something different. Are you agreeing with each other or disagreeing and why?

"I believe that there is a contradiction in saying Jews are "chosen" if there is no G-d. What does that mean? Who can do the choosing? OTOH I cannot control the logic other people use.

There are certainly secular Jews who are proud of their heritage. But that is not chosenness"

"so anyone who is of Jewish descent is bound by it"

What does this mean?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My Dad says that many Jews do not believe in God. Is that true? If it is, why would anyone who does not believe in God call themselves Jewish (or any other religion).

Ps. I myself am atheist / agnostic.

Jewish was a people before it was a "religion"

"you shall be my people, and I shall be your G-d" Implies that first the Jews were a people, then they accepted, as a people G-d's covenant. They accepted the covenant on behalf of themselves and their descendants so anyone who is of Jewish descent is bound by it, whether they believe G-d exists or not.

That is the religious Jewish answer.

The non religious answers is that the Jews are a people like any other - and you can be any religion or nonreligion and be Jewish. The real question for those is why are atheists more likely to be accepted as Jews, than Jews who covert to Christianity or Islam. The answer, I think is that Jews who because atheists historically contained to live with the Jewish community, behind legally mandated ghetto walls. Converts to Christianity were, by law, not allowed to live in the Jewish ghetto or have contact with Jews, so conversion represented a turning of ones back on the community in a more profound way.

Do jews really believe that God somehow just chose them as a people despite whether they believed in him or not? God in the bible seems to chose people who agreed to believe in him and do as he asked and as a result God gave them help to lead. He wiped out entire jewish cities because those people didn't believe in him. Only a few jews were allowed to enter the promised land. It doesn't sound like he just accepted them as chosen people outright.

Just curious. Why were Christians not allowed by jews to have contact with other jews?

Anonymous wrote:My Dad says that many Jews do not believe in God. Is that true? If it is, why would anyone who does not believe in God call themselves Jewish (or any other religion).

Ps. I myself am atheist / agnostic.

Jewish was a people before it was a "religion"

"you shall be my people, and I shall be your G-d" Implies that first the Jews were a people, then they accepted, as a people G-d's covenant. They accepted the covenant on behalf of themselves and their descendants so anyone who is of Jewish descent is bound by it, whether they believe G-d exists or not.

That is the religious Jewish answer.

The non religious answers is that the Jews are a people like any other - and you can be any religion or nonreligion and be Jewish. The real question for those is why are atheists more likely to be accepted as Jews, than Jews who covert to Christianity or Islam. The answer, I think is that Jews who because atheists historically contained to live with the Jewish community, behind legally mandated ghetto walls. Converts to Christianity were, by law, not allowed to live in the Jewish ghetto or have contact with Jews, so conversion represented a turning of ones back on the community in a more profound way.

Well, if you're talking about Jesus as God, then, no, Jews don't believe that Jesus was our savior or the messiah. We're still waiting for the messiah (or the "messianic age," in the case of Reform Jews) to come.

But while most Jews do believe in God (or Yahweh, the transliteration of Hebrew letters that stand for "he whose name must not be said), there are a good number of agnostic or atheist Jews. One of the foundations of Judaism is questioning, and there's a huge text consisting of nothing more than rabbis' arguments about what the Torah (or Old Testament) means. For some Jews, the questioning leads to a non-belief in God.

Because Judaism is an ethnicity/culture as well as a religion, many agnostic/atheist Jews still follow the cultural traditions of Judaism, even without a belief in God. One can still fast and apologize for past sins on Yom Kippur, have a family meal to look back on the week on Shabbat, celebrate bringing light to the cold of winter on Hanukkah, and talk about social injustice on Passover without believing in God. (Just to mention secular celebrations of a few holidays.)

Judaism does not require a specific belief in God. You can be an atheist and still be Jewish. Moreover, many people look upon Judaism as cultural and ethnic in addition to religious or spiritual; thus, many people still consider themselves Jewish despite not attending services or celebrating rituals of Judaism.

My Dad says that many Jews do not believe in God. Is that true? If it is, why would anyone who does not believe in God call themselves Jewish (or any other religion).

Ps. I myself am atheist / agnostic.