Anonymous
Post 02/25/2015 17:23     Subject: What happened at counseling?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Curious to know what kind of things were on that list


It rubs the lotion on its skin. It does this whenever it is told.


Okay, Buffalo Bill. That's enough out of you. Honestly, you've posted this on several threads this week. (I enjoyed Silence of the Lambs as much as the next gal but this is getting old.)
Anonymous
Post 02/25/2015 17:13     Subject: What happened at counseling?
Anonymous wrote:

Anyway, I've totally hijacked this thread and I didn't want to - I just don't like hearing the "abusive behavior" tossed around lightly.


This is OP, and you have totally gotten on my nerves AND highjacked my thread. Maybe my DH is abusive, maybe he isn't. I don't actually take the term lightly. It's actually a very complicated situation because life is complicated, it isn't as easy as me saying "Oh, he's abusive and I have to leave." There are children involved, our very intertwined lives, etc. Plus, people change and go through all kinds of changes in their life where they aren't on their best behavior. There's a lot more than that, and I didn't want to get into it because that's not what I wanted the thread to be about, so I changed my wording. But I take it back.

Also, I agree with the pp who said that you didn't go into counseling in good faith and you basically railroaded your fiance and the therapist. You just wanted validation for leaving. I now wonder how self-aware you are at all.
Anonymous
Post 02/25/2015 15:50     Subject: What happened at counseling?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Curious to know what kind of things were on that list


It rubs the lotion on its skin. It does this whenever it is told.


You know, that makes me laugh. It's frighteningly close to the truth.

There was very little physical violence - only one or two outbursts where she attacked me - and the size/strength differential meant that there wasn't much physical damage inflicted. However, it did scare me, because I knew any conflict could then escalate, and I wanted no part of that, ever.

It has been over ten years now, and I long ago purged my life and got rid of everything, so I don't have the list and honestly, I've tried to forget I ever let this happen to me - it's humiliating and you feel like a complete fool - and your mind cleans up the past. Most of the items centered around how I was cruel, abusive and exploitative of her, with detailed examples of what exactly I'd "done" (literal actions in each case) that was cruel or abusive; none of it made any sense. This is part of how an abuser keeps you feeling Fear, Obligation and Guilt, which is what they use to control you and keep you around and under their thumb (also: sex). It wasn't that she loved me - it was just that she was terrified of being abandoned. Once it was clearly over, for good (and I literally ran away on foot), and she was out of my house, she never said another word to me. I found out about a year later that she'd moved onto another guy in about two weeks.

Anyway, I've totally hijacked this thread and I didn't want to - I just don't like hearing the "abusive behavior" tossed around lightly.
Anonymous
Post 02/25/2015 15:42     Subject: What happened at counseling?
Anonymous wrote:If you're really interested in change go to a Gottman workshop for a weekend and then find a therapist who is certified in using he gottman method. There are only a few but you can find one.


Tell us more about it. What happens, and how is it helpful?
Anonymous
Post 02/25/2015 15:35     Subject: What happened at counseling?
Anonymous wrote:That's a great story- thanks for sharing.

I'm curious, did the therapist ever acknowledge that he'd been hoodwinked in the first two sessions? Kudos to you for documenting the craziness but damn, that could have gone really badly if you hadn't been so proactive.


I'm glad to have shared.

No, he absolutely didn't admit it. I do not think this is terribly uncommon however, particularly with BPD pts. I didn't bother going back - the setup was for couples therapy, so you see that T together. I was already seeing someone on my own and continued.

To the people saying "that wasn't what the OP was looking for": the OP said "emotionally abusive". I offered an example of what couples therapy worked out like where abuse was involved. Either OP shouldn't be so casual about using that term, or she should heed the warning. You post, you get an answer, not just the cheerleading confirmation you want to hear.

And to the person who says I went in with an ulterior motive: no, I went in and played it completely straight. And I followed - in good faith - exactly what the recommendations were and worked the steps...I didn't skip anything or manipulate...I managed to stop being manipulated. Way to blame the victim though. If I ever encountered a situation where the gaslighting left me feeling like I needed to write things down or tape record them again, I wouldn't bother with therapy, I'd just leave. I did do a lot of therapy on my own to see why I was drawn to the crazy, and I recognize it a lot of faster now, so there's no way I'm getting into that position again.
Anonymous
Post 02/25/2015 15:12     Subject: What happened at counseling?
Anonymous wrote:
Curious to know what kind of things were on that list


It rubs the lotion on its skin. It does this whenever it is told.
Anonymous
Post 02/25/2015 14:18     Subject: What happened at counseling?
Anonymous wrote:I was in an emotionally abusive relationship with a lot of gaslighting - we were engaged, but didn't marry. I insisted on therapy to address the up-is-down, black-is-white nuttiness (the gaslighting), and we went in.

First two meetings: she utterly snowed the therapist. Male therapist, she had him eating out of her hand.

She and I had a long session talking after meeting #2 - went long into the night (the gaslighting works better when you add sleep deprivation), and I simply said, "I want to hear everything you have to say, I am going to listen to you well and really try this time - I'm going to accept your (dominance over me) criticism and work harder to make this work". I wrote down the things she said to me. I read them back to her. I went overboard on active listening and documented the points. They jumped around a lot even during the conversation, but I got about two pages worth down that she more or less insisted on.

Third meeting: I said to the therapist, "I really did try what you suggested, and I did some active listening, and here's the things we came up with that I need to do", and I read him the list. She was falling all over herself to try to deny they were real, and was claiming I'd made them up. They were an obvious bag of crazy. I kind of needed the shock of seeing them written down to see how far I'd fallen down the rabbit hole. Therapist said, "I think you two should separate, immediately" (we were living together).

That's what happened the last time I tried couples counseling.

If you really feel your husband is emotionally abusive (and to me that doesn't mean simply "jerk" or "says mean things" or "says things I don't like"), then why bother wasting your time? Just check into therapy for yourself individually and figure out why you want to be with an emotionally abusive person. That's what I did (finally) and started making much better choices.

If you have kids and can't leave, then I guess stick it out.


Curious to know what kind of things were on that list
Anonymous
Post 02/25/2015 13:50     Subject: What happened at counseling?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I was in an emotionally abusive relationship with a lot of gaslighting - we were engaged, but didn't marry. I insisted on therapy to address the up-is-down, black-is-white nuttiness (the gaslighting), and we went in.

First two meetings: she utterly snowed the therapist. Male therapist, she had him eating out of her hand.

She and I had a long session talking after meeting #2 - went long into the night (the gaslighting works better when you add sleep deprivation), and I simply said, "I want to hear everything you have to say, I am going to listen to you well and really try this time - I'm going to accept your (dominance over me) criticism and work harder to make this work". I wrote down the things she said to me. I read them back to her. I went overboard on active listening and documented the points. They jumped around a lot even during the conversation, but I got about two pages worth down that she more or less insisted on.

Third meeting: I said to the therapist, "I really did try what you suggested, and I did some active listening, and here's the things we came up with that I need to do", and I read him the list. She was falling all over herself to try to deny they were real, and was claiming I'd made them up. They were an obvious bag of crazy. I kind of needed the shock of seeing them written down to see how far I'd fallen down the rabbit hole. Therapist said, "I think you two should separate, immediately" (we were living together).

That's what happened the last time I tried couples counseling.

If you really feel your husband is emotionally abusive (and to me that doesn't mean simply "jerk" or "says mean things" or "says things I don't like"), then why bother wasting your time? Just check into therapy for yourself individually and figure out why you want to be with an emotionally abusive person. That's what I did (finally) and started making much better choices.

If you have kids and can't leave, then I guess stick it out.


That's not a good example of counseling, obviously. You both went into it with ulterior motives, and after two sessions you tricked and manipulated the person you were engaged to and arrived at the session with a "ta da! Look at what an idiot I'm with." That's not counseling, that's looking for validation to leave, which I'm glad you received and I'm assuming you've left that relationship. I think OP is looking for examples of actual, good faith attempts at counseling.


+1. Not the type of example OP was looking for.
Anonymous
Post 02/25/2015 10:36     Subject: What happened at counseling?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
If you really feel your husband is emotionally abusive (and to me that doesn't mean simply "jerk" or "says mean things" or "says things I don't like"), then why bother wasting your time? Just check into therapy for yourself individually and figure out why you want to be with an emotionally abusive person. That's what I did (finally) and started making much better choices.


Well, maybe I am over-simplifying it by saying "emotionally abusive." That's really charged language. Maybe just "questionable behavior for a loving relationship."


Yep, it sure is! That's why I wanted to offer up what it conjures up.

Humorously (now), I wouldn't have called it abusive at the time, or rather, wouldn't have recognized it as such.

Anyway, we're in counseling and I just wanted to see what other people's experiences are. I'll complain about DH in some other thread. I'm glad you got out of a bad relationship before marriage. If only we were all so smart.


Well, I stayed for years longer than I should have - years after the abuse started...so I'm not exactly patting myself on the back.

Rather than just complaining about your husband, focus on being as objectively honest with yourself about what is going on as you can, which may include things you do to contribute to the cycle.

It always takes two people to make a problem - I was part of the bad dynamic in the abusive relationship. I had to make changes in myself to stop that cycle. Therapy is not about blame, taking sides or refereeing. It's about fixing a dynamic.
Anonymous
Post 02/25/2015 10:30     Subject: What happened at counseling?
Anonymous wrote:I was in an emotionally abusive relationship with a lot of gaslighting - we were engaged, but didn't marry. I insisted on therapy to address the up-is-down, black-is-white nuttiness (the gaslighting), and we went in.

First two meetings: she utterly snowed the therapist. Male therapist, she had him eating out of her hand.
She and I had a long session talking after meeting #2 - went long into the night (the gaslighting works better when you add sleep deprivation), and I simply said, "I want to hear everything you have to say, I am going to listen to you well and really try this time - I'm going to accept your (dominance over me) criticism and work harder to make this work". I wrote down the things she said to me. I read them back to her. I went overboard on active listening and documented the points. They jumped around a lot even during the conversation, but I got about two pages worth down that she more or less insisted on.

Third meeting: I said to the therapist, "I really did try what you suggested, and I did some active listening, and here's the things we came up with that I need to do", and I read him the list. She was falling all over herself to try to deny they were real, and was claiming I'd made them up. They were an obvious bag of crazy. I kind of needed the shock of seeing them written down to see how far I'd fallen down the rabbit hole. Therapist said, "I think you two should separate, immediately" (we were living together).

That's what happened the last time I tried couples counseling.


That's a great story- thanks for sharing.

I'm curious, did the therapist ever acknowledge that he'd been hoodwinked in the first two sessions? Kudos to you for documenting the craziness but damn, that could have gone really badly if you hadn't been so proactive.
Anonymous
Post 02/25/2015 10:30     Subject: What happened at counseling?
Anonymous wrote:I was in an emotionally abusive relationship with a lot of gaslighting - we were engaged, but didn't marry. I insisted on therapy to address the up-is-down, black-is-white nuttiness (the gaslighting), and we went in.

First two meetings: she utterly snowed the therapist. Male therapist, she had him eating out of her hand.

She and I had a long session talking after meeting #2 - went long into the night (the gaslighting works better when you add sleep deprivation), and I simply said, "I want to hear everything you have to say, I am going to listen to you well and really try this time - I'm going to accept your (dominance over me) criticism and work harder to make this work". I wrote down the things she said to me. I read them back to her. I went overboard on active listening and documented the points. They jumped around a lot even during the conversation, but I got about two pages worth down that she more or less insisted on.

Third meeting: I said to the therapist, "I really did try what you suggested, and I did some active listening, and here's the things we came up with that I need to do", and I read him the list. She was falling all over herself to try to deny they were real, and was claiming I'd made them up. They were an obvious bag of crazy. I kind of needed the shock of seeing them written down to see how far I'd fallen down the rabbit hole. Therapist said, "I think you two should separate, immediately" (we were living together).

That's what happened the last time I tried couples counseling.

If you really feel your husband is emotionally abusive (and to me that doesn't mean simply "jerk" or "says mean things" or "says things I don't like"), then why bother wasting your time? Just check into therapy for yourself individually and figure out why you want to be with an emotionally abusive person. That's what I did (finally) and started making much better choices.

If you have kids and can't leave, then I guess stick it out.


That's not a good example of counseling, obviously. You both went into it with ulterior motives, and after two sessions you tricked and manipulated the person you were engaged to and arrived at the session with a "ta da! Look at what an idiot I'm with." That's not counseling, that's looking for validation to leave, which I'm glad you received and I'm assuming you've left that relationship. I think OP is looking for examples of actual, good faith attempts at counseling.
Anonymous
Post 02/25/2015 10:18     Subject: What happened at counseling?
Anonymous wrote:
If you really feel your husband is emotionally abusive (and to me that doesn't mean simply "jerk" or "says mean things" or "says things I don't like"), then why bother wasting your time? Just check into therapy for yourself individually and figure out why you want to be with an emotionally abusive person. That's what I did (finally) and started making much better choices.

If you have kids and can't leave, then I guess stick it out.


Well, maybe I am over-simplifying it by saying "emotionally abusive." That's really charged language. Maybe just "questionable behavior for a loving relationship." Anyway, we're in counseling and I just wanted to see what other people's experiences are. I'll complain about DH in some other thread. I'm glad you got out of a bad relationship before marriage. If only we were all so smart.
Anonymous
Post 02/25/2015 09:44     Subject: What happened at counseling?
If you're really interested in change go to a Gottman workshop for a weekend and then find a therapist who is certified in using he gottman method. There are only a few but you can find one.
Anonymous
Post 02/25/2015 09:42     Subject: What happened at counseling?
I was in an emotionally abusive relationship with a lot of gaslighting - we were engaged, but didn't marry. I insisted on therapy to address the up-is-down, black-is-white nuttiness (the gaslighting), and we went in.

First two meetings: she utterly snowed the therapist. Male therapist, she had him eating out of her hand.

She and I had a long session talking after meeting #2 - went long into the night (the gaslighting works better when you add sleep deprivation), and I simply said, "I want to hear everything you have to say, I am going to listen to you well and really try this time - I'm going to accept your (dominance over me) criticism and work harder to make this work". I wrote down the things she said to me. I read them back to her. I went overboard on active listening and documented the points. They jumped around a lot even during the conversation, but I got about two pages worth down that she more or less insisted on.

Third meeting: I said to the therapist, "I really did try what you suggested, and I did some active listening, and here's the things we came up with that I need to do", and I read him the list. She was falling all over herself to try to deny they were real, and was claiming I'd made them up. They were an obvious bag of crazy. I kind of needed the shock of seeing them written down to see how far I'd fallen down the rabbit hole. Therapist said, "I think you two should separate, immediately" (we were living together).

That's what happened the last time I tried couples counseling.

If you really feel your husband is emotionally abusive (and to me that doesn't mean simply "jerk" or "says mean things" or "says things I don't like"), then why bother wasting your time? Just check into therapy for yourself individually and figure out why you want to be with an emotionally abusive person. That's what I did (finally) and started making much better choices.

If you have kids and can't leave, then I guess stick it out.
Anonymous
Post 02/25/2015 08:50     Subject: What happened at counseling?
A lot of people on this forum (rightly) suggest counseling. But the thought of it can be a little intimidating, and so vague. Like what does the counselor say? What do different counselors do? DH and I just started counseling and it has been a good experience so far, but I am interested in learning about other people's experiences.

For us, DH has been somewhat emotionally abusive and the counselor is not afraid to call him out on it, which was a relief for me and makes me feel less crazy. I waver between thinking things are fixable and thinking that this is my last step in this marriage and that it is likely we are going to separate, but I'm glad we're doing it anyway.