This is a strangely difficult question to answer. We were a long term Burgundy family who eventually left and wished we had left a few years earlier than we did. Leaving is a tough decision because your children will likely be very happy (especially at Burgundy!) and will not want to leave their group of friends.

The difficulty in assessing the school is that it provides three distinct experiences: early years (jk thru about 2nd grade), late elementary (about 3 thru 5), and then middle school. I use the word "about" for those groupings because they do not reflect how the classes are actually grouped plus your child's own academic development will vary ... one child might start to experience "lack of challenge" OR "need for remediation" at 2nd while another at 3rd grade.

Very few parents are unhappy with the early years. The place is a dream -- tons of outside time, lots of art and creativity, their strongest teachers, lovely social support environment, very few academic problems/issues, no sexuality coursework or politics included in lesson plans. No friction. This is the part of the school that most touring parents see and fall in love with for good reason. Ask parents of young kids if they are happy with their choice and you tend to get a fairly unanimous YES! Lots of community volunteering and involvement at this age level too, so everyone is just HAPPY for the most part.

Then comes those later elementary years. If you apply your child to the JK or K years, you had no real idea of your child's academic needs at that time. Trust me, you really don't know at that point. So you guess what school will be the right fit and assume you will adjust later if needed. There are certain types of learners that just really thrive at a school like Burgundy. Self-motivated kids who are not just curious but seek out information and can make intellectual inferences get a lot out of the program. Middle of the pack kids do just fine. The two groups that I personally feel don't do as well are (1) kids who need more support and (2) smart kids who don't care to use their abilities.

The kids who need support are not easily identified by teachers or by you the parent. Why? Because the Burgundy "way" as a philosophy allows such latitude in learning outcomes and tests so infrequently. I had a sense that one of my children was quite weak on a particular skill but was assured over the years that she was within the age appropriate range and that I should not worry. Finally the 4th grade ERB indicated a serious lag and STILL I was assured that I shouldn't worry on the basis of just one standardized test. The 5th grade ERB confirmed the problem was even worse (the unaddressed skill deficit had really changed but the cohort had increased by a year whereas my child had not.) Burgundy really teaches only one way. They provide a lot of lip service to "teaching children where they are" and "differentiation" etc. etc. but if you attend much time in a classroom you will see that they all largely do the same activities in the same way. If your child is happily doing all the things but quietly not learning a thing and there is no end of unit test to learn that this is the case ... you'd be surprised how long it will take you as a parent to figure out there is a problem.

That second group of kids who are capable of doing seriously more challenging work but love not having to do so will be fine when they get to HS. It is a philosophical issue for you the parent to decide if an easygoing academic experience through 8th grade is a gift or a wasted opportunity! I obviously leaned towards the gift viewpoint, but now that my kids are at schools that lean just a bit harder on the challenge end, I find that they are happy to learn what they are capable of when they are required to do more. It makes them happy in a different way.

Finally, to address your actual question. If the difficulty you have with the school is related to wanting more support, differentiation, challenge etc. for your child ... I would anticipate you will experience massive frustration. And the parental group think comes in here too ... most parents chose the school because they support the "gift" viewpoint. This should not come as a surprise to anyone. If the problem you have is one related to bullying (yes, this definitely occurs at this school despite their social curriculum ... it happens at ALL schools) or other social concerns, it was my experience that the administration and teachers attempted to be very helpful.

I cannot provide much insight into the middle school years as we chose to leave before that time. The anecdotal stories I heard and continue to hear from friends are not too good. But that is not first hand info.

Bottom line: Understand the culture and teaching goals of the grades you are applying into and be very sure you are in agreement. The school will not change its culture or curriculum for your child. They will not provide meaningful accelerated anything for your child, including math. They may tell you otherwise but it is not true. The school is wonderful for many, many kids. But be prepared to leave if you need something different. This is of course true for any school.

I had two children at Burgundy Farm, both now graduated, both went through the entire program and landed at local top independent school, and neither was "out of the box" genius/self-taught learner type ... so perhaps I have an Alls Well that Ends Well bias! I'm posting months later, in case there are searchers here that are evaluating whether to apply especially to Middle School. I want to validate that the following quoted post is really balanced, and durable in its wisdom *hi to whomever you are!*. Really well stated.

With the distance of high school, and one in college, I can also say that the socio-emotional curriculum, and the "whole child for the whole world" concepts that spiral and repeat and mature throughout the curriculum are valid, important, and unequalled in this area. Lasting positive impact. And maybe that's the most important, most lasting aspect one can expect from a K-8 private school? The academics become whatever they are in HS. And the kids do get placed well in the end if they show innate promise.

That said? It is true that the academic program was disjointed, that there are 5 or 7 teachers -- especially in the Middle School -- who should be canned for their various flaws -- mediocrity and staleness and favoritism, inability to handle variety of learning styles. What shocked me at the end of our journey with Burgundy was that the majority of those graduating eighth graders could not wait to get out of there and had only a few meaningful teacher relationships, mostly from non-core teachers (arts, learning support, etc). Something was really broken in the middle school. All the good intentions at the head of school level were not manifested. I had some unbelievably negative experiences in our last two years there. Ask careful questions if you are looking at a MS entry.

If you are looking at early childhood, it's the best program in town. Just be wise and open to revisiting your decision before 4th grade to test the quality of faculty and the suitability of the approach to your particular child ... all hard to assess with a 5 year lead time.

Anonymous wrote:Whoops, I am the PP and meant to add something on what I think are legitimate concerns about Burgundy. The school definitely has both real pros and real cons.

Pros:

Kids treated with affection and respect; given a lot of independence; outdoors a lot; teachers by and large highly engaged and seem to truly like their jobs; beautiful campus; not overly competitive culture; nice kids; kids do very well in high school and college admissions, so despite lack of competitive culture kids are well-prepared for entry into highly respected schools.

Cons:

school often has a somewhat disorganized/amateurish feel to it.

Administrators extremely well-meaning but sometimes much too nice: they will not come down hard on underperforming teachers.

Teachers well-meaning but uneven; they often lack skills to handle anything outside the norm, whether it is the super-bright kid or a kid with mild learning disabilities. They just don't have the training to know what to do.

Despite claims about experiential learning and differential instruction, the curriculum and teaching methods are in fact rather traditional. Most teachers lack the inclination and/or ability to genuinely tailor the curriculum or assignments to the needs and interests of individual kids. If the teaching or assessment methods don't work well for your child, do not expect Burgundy to make any significant changes.

No ostentatious displays of wealth, but despite superficial PC overlay, Burgundy, like so many other schools, rests on the unarticulated and unexamined assumption that every family is affluent and every mom has the spare income and time to volunteer endlessly.

Hope that is helpful! Burgundy has been FANTASTIC for one of our kids, and much less so for the other. But even the kid who has had a less wholly positive experience (uneven teaching, etc) is quite happy at Burgundy and does not want to leave.

Bottom line, a sweet school and a good school that is a great fit for some kids/families and not so great a fit for other.

11:20/11:30, thanks very much for our meaured, reasoned response. Your post raised some concerns for me, but it seems like the only way we'll know whether it's a fit is by attending. I am enamored of progressive, nature-based education. Not enamored of high-handed or incompetent administrators. Hard to know from the outside whether the one balances out the other.

Oh, well. We'll see if we're accepted.

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Obviously I can't reveal too much more about the specifics of the situation without compromising my friend's privacy.

It's a relief to hear that the teachers are collaborative. That was our perception on our visit. However, it would be helpful to know that the administration is also collaborative in its relationship with parents.

From what my friend told me, the Deputy Head of School was the most responsible for the situation. She said the Director of Admissions, Lori Adams, had been kind and sincerely tried to remediate the situation, but was overridden by the Deputy Head of School. If she is an inflexible personality, is the Head of School any different? Has a new Deputy Head been named?

Yes, a new assistant head has been selected and will be on board next year. As to the situation you describe, it's tough to comment without knowing what the situation was.

If you're going to reference your time at Burgundy (or any school) it's really helpful if you say when you were there. All schools go through ups and downs and changes in the administration can make a big difference.

13:13, when were you there?

Whoops, I am the PP and meant to add something on what I think are legitimate concerns about Burgundy. The school definitely has both real pros and real cons.

Pros:

Kids treated with affection and respect; given a lot of independence; outdoors a lot; teachers by and large highly engaged and seem to truly like their jobs; beautiful campus; not overly competitive culture; nice kids; kids do very well in high school and college admissions, so despite lack of competitive culture kids are well-prepared for entry into highly respected schools.

Cons:

school often has a somewhat disorganized/amateurish feel to it.

Administrators extremely well-meaning but sometimes much too nice: they will not come down hard on underperforming teachers.

Teachers well-meaning but uneven; they often lack skills to handle anything outside the norm, whether it is the super-bright kid or a kid with mild learning disabilities. They just don't have the training to know what to do.

Despite claims about experiential learning and differential instruction, the curriculum and teaching methods are in fact rather traditional. Most teachers lack the inclination and/or ability to genuinely tailor the curriculum or assignments to the needs and interests of individual kids. If the teaching or assessment methods don't work well for your child, do not expect Burgundy to make any significant changes.

No ostentatious displays of wealth, but despite superficial PC overlay, Burgundy, like so many other schools, rests on the unarticulated and unexamined assumption that every family is affluent and every mom has the spare income and time to volunteer endlessly.

Hope that is helpful! Burgundy has been FANTASTIC for one of our kids, and much less so for the other. But even the kid who has had a less wholly positive experience (uneven teaching, etc) is quite happy at Burgundy and does not want to leave.

Bottom line, a sweet school and a good school that is a great fit for some kids/families and not so great a fit for other.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can parents who have had kids attending for several years or who graduated recently speak to what the community and administration is like?
....

Hoping to get more measured responses here.

We were at Burgundy, and we withdrew. We were very unhappy. Burgundy seemed to us to be a very high teacher/admin-turnover environment. Academics are not the key emphasis. Bullying seemed to be openly encouraged, as were ostentatious displays of wealth. The administration refused to respond to concerns that we and other parents brought to them, and at year-end more than 1/3 of the families in two adjacent grade-levels withdrew, for various reasons and expressing various frustrations. There was also a great deal more unhappiness with the academics than we had expected. Burgundy was completely up front with us about the emphases and priorities -- they told us that they aren't the school for a kid with an overwhelming academic drive. Well, they were right, but what we didn't realize is that their program is among the least structured progressive programs in the region. As late as 5th grade, the kids had never even seen what a standardized test looked like, and had not performed evaluated, individual projects. They all sat solely at group tables, because that's how all work was performed. Years later, many -- many -- Burgundy kids seem to do very well, but an alarming number seem to be permanently locked-in to alternative programs. We also found the faculty to be incredibly uneven. A few seemed terrific; a few seemed socially presentable but not at all capable; a few seemed to be overgrown hippies who had nothing but bad days (one of whom enforced classroom order by throwing pencils – admins did nothing). Burgundy seems to have fierce defenders on this board, and also seems to have fierce critics. No one seems neutral about Burgundy. We didn’t realize, until we were out, what a polarizing, hostile place it felt like to us (and we’re relatively lefty, as were other parents who pulled, so it isn’t simply a matter of parent socio-political leanings). We also became aware of legal disputes between families and the school, and we encourage a thorough research job.

Okay, OP, I am a Burgundy parent of nine years and have some definite frustrations, but the poster of the above quite is way off base. Unless their children went to Burgundy many years ago, this account is just factually incorrect. For instance: all Burgundy kids take standardized tests (the ERB) beginning in 4th grade, so the claim that 5th graders had never seen a standardized test is just weird. As for bullying, the school is excellent on that. No, teachers cannot observe ever single interaction between kids, and my kids have sometimes come home with unhappy stories -- but the idea that the school "openly encourages" bullying is ridiculous. Far from it: the teachers come down very hard on bullying the minute it is brought to their attention. A boy was expelled last year for a cyber-related issue, and in the lower grades kids with significant behavior problems tend to be counseled out. The ostentatious wealth display issue is also silly. There are a tiny handful of rich and show-offy people but they are very atypical. One of the things I like most about Burgundy is that it does not feel nearly as much like a rich kids school as many others.

20:54 can you elaborate a bit more on how Burgundy tends to be rigid in "this is how we do it and we like it." Is that about sticking with the curricular approach or about the way they handle conflict resolution? I think it's perfectly reasonable for a school to stick to its curricular guns, but are they rigid in other ways?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can parents who have had kids attending for several years or who graduated recently speak to what the community and administration is like?

Some threads here on DCUM suggest an intolerant community mired in group-think. A friend whose child is also applying this year had a very negative experience with the administration. This is someone I've known for a long time and she is not prone to exaggeration. Now I'm concerned.

We were so impressed during our visit, but are now wondering if we saw a Stepford facade. In particular, we're wondering how the administration deals with parents if there is challenging situation, for example, a specific situation concerning DC or maybe with an issue like bullying or perhaps a child who is consistently disruptive? Are parents' input sought or are parents expected to shut up and accept whatever the administration decides?

We are coming from a preschool where the administration is just amazing. They treat parents as partners and work in a very cooperative way with them. Based on what happened to my friend, I got the sense that the Burgundy administration is more "our road or the high road." I would not want DC to attend if that is the attitude.

I did talk to other friends with children there, but they've only been ther a year or two, are very gung ho Burgundy, and very defensive about what happened to our other friend. Frankly, their defensiveness reinforces the sense of a group-think that makes it wrong to be critical in any way of Burgundy.

Hoping to get more measured responses here.

We were at Burgundy, and we withdrew. We were very unhappy. Burgundy seemed to us to be a very high teacher/admin-turnover environment. Academics are not the key emphasis. Bullying seemed to be openly encouraged, as were ostentatious displays of wealth. The administration refused to respond to concerns that we and other parents brought to them, and at year-end more than 1/3 of the families in two adjacent grade-levels withdrew, for various reasons and expressing various frustrations. There was also a great deal more unhappiness with the academics than we had expected. Burgundy was completely up front with us about the emphases and priorities -- they told us that they aren't the school for a kid with an overwhelming academic drive. Well, they were right, but what we didn't realize is that their program is among the least structured progressive programs in the region. As late as 5th grade, the kids had never even seen what a standardized test looked like, and had not performed evaluated, individual projects. They all sat solely at group tables, because that's how all work was performed. Years later, many -- many -- Burgundy kids seem to do very well, but an alarming number seem to be permanently locked-in to alternative programs. We also found the faculty to be incredibly uneven. A few seemed terrific; a few seemed socially presentable but not at all capable; a few seemed to be overgrown hippies who had nothing but bad days (one of whom enforced classroom order by throwing pencils – admins did nothing). Burgundy seems to have fierce defenders on this board, and also seems to have fierce critics. No one seems neutral about Burgundy. We didn’t realize, until we were out, what a polarizing, hostile place it felt like to us (and we’re relatively lefty, as were other parents who pulled, so it isn’t simply a matter of parent socio-political leanings). We also became aware of legal disputes between families and the school, and we encourage a thorough research job.

This is one of the weirder things I have read about the school.

The school is big into the social emotional curriculum and promoting peace and equality. That doesn't mean that bullying doesn't happen but openly the staff and faculty would never condone or encourage it.

And "ostentatious displays of wealth"? At Burgundy? LOL! Without a doubt, there are some wealthy families there but in general being flashy about money isn't something that one would do. Sure you can tell who has money and yes kids brags but guess what? Happens at public school too.

Burgundy does tend to be rigid in sticking to their "this is how we do it and we like it" so you have to be willing to buy into the school and take the parts you don't like with the parts you do.

OP here. Obviously I can't reveal too much more about the specifics of the situation without compromising my friend's privacy.

It's a relief to hear that the teachers are collaborative. That was our perception on our visit. However, it would be helpful to know that the administration is also collaborative in its relationship with parents.

From what my friend told me, the Deputy Head of School was the most responsible for the situation. She said the Director of Admissions, Lori Adams, had been kind and sincerely tried to remediate the situation, but was overridden by the Deputy Head of School. If she is an inflexible personality, is the Head of School any different? Has a new Deputy Head been named?

Anonymous wrote:Can parents who have had kids attending for several years or who graduated recently speak to what the community and administration is like?

Some threads here on DCUM suggest an intolerant community mired in group-think. A friend whose child is also applying this year had a very negative experience with the administration. This is someone I've known for a long time and she is not prone to exaggeration. Now I'm concerned.

We were so impressed during our visit, but are now wondering if we saw a Stepford facade. In particular, we're wondering how the administration deals with parents if there is challenging situation, for example, a specific situation concerning DC or maybe with an issue like bullying or perhaps a child who is consistently disruptive? Are parents' input sought or are parents expected to shut up and accept whatever the administration decides?

We are coming from a preschool where the administration is just amazing. They treat parents as partners and work in a very cooperative way with them. Based on what happened to my friend, I got the sense that the Burgundy administration is more "our road or the high road." I would not want DC to attend if that is the attitude.

I did talk to other friends with children there, but they've only been ther a year or two, are very gung ho Burgundy, and very defensive about what happened to our other friend. Frankly, their defensiveness reinforces the sense of a group-think that makes it wrong to be critical in any way of Burgundy.

Hoping to get more measured responses here.

We were at Burgundy, and we withdrew. We were very unhappy. Burgundy seemed to us to be a very high teacher/admin-turnover environment. Academics are not the key emphasis. Bullying seemed to be openly encouraged, as were ostentatious displays of wealth. The administration refused to respond to concerns that we and other parents brought to them, and at year-end more than 1/3 of the families in two adjacent grade-levels withdrew, for various reasons and expressing various frustrations. There was also a great deal more unhappiness with the academics than we had expected. Burgundy was completely up front with us about the emphases and priorities -- they told us that they aren't the school for a kid with an overwhelming academic drive. Well, they were right, but what we didn't realize is that their program is among the least structured progressive programs in the region. As late as 5th grade, the kids had never even seen what a standardized test looked like, and had not performed evaluated, individual projects. They all sat solely at group tables, because that's how all work was performed. Years later, many -- many -- Burgundy kids seem to do very well, but an alarming number seem to be permanently locked-in to alternative programs. We also found the faculty to be incredibly uneven. A few seemed terrific; a few seemed socially presentable but not at all capable; a few seemed to be overgrown hippies who had nothing but bad days (one of whom enforced classroom order by throwing pencils – admins did nothing). Burgundy seems to have fierce defenders on this board, and also seems to have fierce critics. No one seems neutral about Burgundy. We didn’t realize, until we were out, what a polarizing, hostile place it felt like to us (and we’re relatively lefty, as were other parents who pulled, so it isn’t simply a matter of parent socio-political leanings). We also became aware of legal disputes between families and the school, and we encourage a thorough research job.

Burgundy teachers, I think like a number of the JK or k-8s in the metro area, try to work together with parents to build a good experience for each individual kid but also with a view to how the class works together as a mini community. I've watched my kids' year groups go through some ups and downs , but in the end, I was surprised by the amount of affection the year groups seem to retain after graduation. As well as doing well in HS. You seem to be referring to some very specific instances that are not really possible to address without knowing more , and you shouldn't tell us more because a public board shouldnt get identifying information about children.
Be sure what Burgundy offers is what you want. For example, if you really want your kid sitting at a desk in K all day, you might not be comfortable with the school's program/philosophy. The point here is, is the school being inflexible (in your friend's view) because the parent wants to change the school, or because no one is willing to learn more about their child? When I shared my insights about my children with their teachers, I was surprised at the number of teachers who followed up with me. They let me know whether they saw what I was concerned about in their classes. Sometimes I was told they didn't see a problem in the area I was worried about, and then gave me concrete examples of how my child was successful in the given situation. Sometimes, they said they saw it too , and had talked with child and were working on it.
Once I went in and said one of my kids needs a temporary break from another kid. That was accommodated. But I never went in and said: what are you going to do about so and so?
No school can discuss another family's child with you. Though the kids can always go to the counselor, separately or together.
Again, it's difficult to address such vague concerns. Maybe this gives you a flavor for our experience .

OP More elaboration on this statement may be helpful.

"A friend whose child is also applying this year had a very negative experience with the administration."

If so are they even still applying? Was the experience during the application process or they have an older child at the school?

As a family we are in our third year at Burgundy. And we have had limited interactions with the administration. There has not been a need.

I can understand looking for a school that will fit for your child and your family, but are you already expecting there to be issues for your DC or within the class to require escalation to the administration?

I am curious as to how someone who is applying could have a bad experience with administration?

As you probably know the assistant head of school will be leaving at the end of the year which will probably result in some changes. I have a tough time imagining anyone having a huge conflict with the head of school, so I'm assuming it was someone at the assistant head of school level or below that?

In terms of culture I have found that what you see is what you get with teachers and parents. It's harder for me to comment on the administration because I haven't had a lot of situations in which their input was required. However, I can fairly easily imagine having conflict with the current assistant head of school.

On the parent/faculty front - there are no tricks. It really is a great group of people. The campus definitely trend towards the liberal end of the spectrum and I think if you're on the extreme right it might not be that comfortable for you. No one really cares about your private beliefs, but if you were trying to arrange a pro life rally on campus it's not going to be well received...

Can parents who have had kids attending for several years or who graduated recently speak to what the community and administration is like?

Some threads here on DCUM suggest an intolerant community mired in group-think. A friend whose child is also applying this year had a very negative experience with the administration. This is someone I've known for a long time and she is not prone to exaggeration. Now I'm concerned.

We were so impressed during our visit, but are now wondering if we saw a Stepford facade. In particular, we're wondering how the administration deals with parents if there is challenging situation, for example, a specific situation concerning DC or maybe with an issue like bullying or perhaps a child who is consistently disruptive? Are parents' input sought or are parents expected to shut up and accept whatever the administration decides?

We are coming from a preschool where the administration is just amazing. They treat parents as partners and work in a very cooperative way with them. Based on what happened to my friend, I got the sense that the Burgundy administration is more "our road or the high road." I would not want DC to attend if that is the attitude.

I did talk to other friends with children there, but they've only been ther a year or two, are very gung ho Burgundy, and very defensive about what happened to our other friend. Frankly, their defensiveness reinforces the sense of a group-think that makes it wrong to be critical in any way of Burgundy.

Hoping to get more measured responses here.