Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know much about the Presbyterians, but as somebody who has spent a lot of time in the Episcopal church as an adult only (not born and raised in the church), here's my two cents. I liked that the Episcopals are very similar to the Catholics (at least on paper), with similar services/masses, reading schedule, similar rituals, etc, but increasingly the church is just making stuff up as they go that isn't rooted in scripture or liturgy. I could give many examples, but in my church for example, our priests have rejected the teaching of no sex before marriage. One of the priests said that such a teaching is simply unrealistic in today's world, so there's no need to even talk about it anymore. The Episcopals are very welcoming to all, but the emphasis is on belonging rather than believing in anything. Even among clergy there are very inconsistent beliefs on core liturgy. In my former church, we recited the Nicene Creed, yet one of the priests openly rejects most of what is contained in the Creed. There's no talk whatsoever about sin, yet lots of talk about racial issues, gun control, gay rights, etc. Differing voices have no forum and receive no concern. My takeaway was that the church loved everybody until somebody disagreed, and then all bets were off. The extreme liberalism and stray from scripture has caused about half of Episcopal congregations to break off from the national US church and join the more conservative African churches (called the schism). Attendance in the remaining US churches keeps falling at a rapid rate. Basically, the Episcopal Church is a place where you can believe anything you want and you'll always get a pat on the back no matter what you do, say, or believe. In the end, that wasn't appealing to me and wasn't allowing me to grow either personally or spiritually, so I left the church.

I think this proves that if you're conservative, OP, then the Episcopal church is probably not for you.

You don't even have to be conservative to have an issue with the Episcopal church today. Episcopals have always been a more moderate to liberal Protestant denomination, and even the moderates are breaking away from the national church.

Well, said, and to the first PPs point - those that break away are usually now aligned with the Anglican communion worldwide and now has its own Bishopric and Assembly in the U.S.A. The Episcopal church died after Bishop Shori's term (she was asked to leave after seven years) leaving 300 million in debt caused by her venemous litigation against departing congregations. The Episcopal NY headquarters have had to be sold to pay litigation fees, as well as any unused Episcopal properties in the USA. Membership in the Epis. Church of the USA is down to an all time low since the 60's to only 1.6 M members. The Anglicans have 80 million members worldwide, second only to Catholicisim and the Orthodox Churches, so is the third largest Christian denomination in the world. You will see continued expansionism of Anglicanism in the USA in the the next few decades. Anglicanism picks up the ex-Catholics, the ex-Episcopalians, the former Baptists, and some orthodox evanglistic christians.

I wish pp had done some fact-checking before posting the above. The errors suggest not being very in touch with church events and/or purposely trying to mislead people.

Bishop Schori is still presiding bishop. Her nine term ends in June of 2015. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katharine_Jefferts_Schori

Since she's been in office, church membership has decreased by 12% (not half the congregations, as claimed above). http://www.religionnews.com/2014/09/23/episcopal-churchs-katharine-jefferts-schori-will-seek-re-election/

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know much about the Presbyterians, but as somebody who has spent a lot of time in the Episcopal church as an adult only (not born and raised in the church), here's my two cents. I liked that the Episcopals are very similar to the Catholics (at least on paper), with similar services/masses, reading schedule, similar rituals, etc, but increasingly the church is just making stuff up as they go that isn't rooted in scripture or liturgy. I could give many examples, but in my church for example, our priests have rejected the teaching of no sex before marriage. One of the priests said that such a teaching is simply unrealistic in today's world, so there's no need to even talk about it anymore. The Episcopals are very welcoming to all, but the emphasis is on belonging rather than believing in anything. Even among clergy there are very inconsistent beliefs on core liturgy. In my former church, we recited the Nicene Creed, yet one of the priests openly rejects most of what is contained in the Creed. There's no talk whatsoever about sin, yet lots of talk about racial issues, gun control, gay rights, etc. Differing voices have no forum and receive no concern. My takeaway was that the church loved everybody until somebody disagreed, and then all bets were off. The extreme liberalism and stray from scripture has caused about half of Episcopal congregations to break off from the national US church and join the more conservative African churches (called the schism). Attendance in the remaining US churches keeps falling at a rapid rate. Basically, the Episcopal Church is a place where you can believe anything you want and you'll always get a pat on the back no matter what you do, say, or believe. In the end, that wasn't appealing to me and wasn't allowing me to grow either personally or spiritually, so I left the church.

I think this proves that if you're conservative, OP, then the Episcopal church is probably not for you.

You don't even have to be conservative to have an issue with the Episcopal church today. Episcopals have always been a more moderate to liberal Protestant denomination, and even the moderates are breaking away from the national church.

Well, said, and to the first PPs point - those that break away are usually now aligned with the Anglican communion worldwide and now has its own Bishopric and Assembly in the U.S.A. The Episcopal church died after Bishop Shori's term (she was asked to leave after seven years) leaving 300 million in debt caused by her venemous litigation against departing congregations. The Episcopal NY headquarters have had to be sold to pay litigation fees, as well as any unused Episcopal properties in the USA. Membership in the Epis. Church of the USA is down to an all time low since the 60's to only 1.6 M members. The Anglicans have 80 million members worldwide, second only to Catholicisim and the Orthodox Churches, so is the third largest Christian denomination in the world. You will see continued expansionism of Anglicanism in the USA in the the next few decades. Anglicanism picks up the ex-Catholics, the ex-Episcopalians, the former Baptists, and some orthodox evanglistic christians.

I was raised as a Presbyterian. It's a fairly austere Calvinist denomination that arose as a reaction to excesses in the Church of England. Churches tend to be less ornamented or done in Danish modern style. The services have less liturgy than a Catholic or Episcopalian church. A standard Sunday service might consist of a prayer done by a member of the congregation, a hymn or two, time for silent prayer, reciting the Lord's Prayer, and some congregational announcements. The minister giving the sermon selects two passages: one from the Old Testament, and one from the New. These are read, and then a 20-30 minute sermon ensues. Communion is not taken at most services, but it is done a few times per year (the PCUSA requires 5 times, I think). As a PP noted, Protestants generally do not believe in transubstantiation. Presbyterians do technically believe in predestination, but I suspect few harbor that belief today

It's a fairly liberal denomination, with a belief in a right to choose for women. They go back and forth on gay participation in congregational life, but at last have recently agreed to allow gay marriage.

It's a democratic denomination, with no hierarchy (no bishops etc.). Instead, there are representative bodies. Each church belongs to a presbytery, and each presbytery belongs to a synod. The presbyteries and synods send representatives to the General Assembly, which meets annually to discuss matters of policy. In practice, the GA can't agree on most resolutions, so they table them. This gives individual congregations a lot of freedom, so you can generally find a Presbyterian Church you like. When kids are confirmed, they become voting members of the Church, and can vote for the Elders and Deacons who are the governing bodies of the individual churches. As in most churches, the wealthy donors tend to have outsized influence behind the scenes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know much about the Presbyterians, but as somebody who has spent a lot of time in the Episcopal church as an adult only (not born and raised in the church), here's my two cents. I liked that the Episcopals are very similar to the Catholics (at least on paper), with similar services/masses, reading schedule, similar rituals, etc, but increasingly the church is just making stuff up as they go that isn't rooted in scripture or liturgy. I could give many examples, but in my church for example, our priests have rejected the teaching of no sex before marriage. One of the priests said that such a teaching is simply unrealistic in today's world, so there's no need to even talk about it anymore. The Episcopals are very welcoming to all, but the emphasis is on belonging rather than believing in anything. Even among clergy there are very inconsistent beliefs on core liturgy. In my former church, we recited the Nicene Creed, yet one of the priests openly rejects most of what is contained in the Creed. There's no talk whatsoever about sin, yet lots of talk about racial issues, gun control, gay rights, etc. Differing voices have no forum and receive no concern. My takeaway was that the church loved everybody until somebody disagreed, and then all bets were off. The extreme liberalism and stray from scripture has caused about half of Episcopal congregations to break off from the national US church and join the more conservative African churches (called the schism). Attendance in the remaining US churches keeps falling at a rapid rate. Basically, the Episcopal Church is a place where you can believe anything you want and you'll always get a pat on the back no matter what you do, say, or believe. In the end, that wasn't appealing to me and wasn't allowing me to grow either personally or spiritually, so I left the church.

I think this proves that if you're conservative, OP, then the Episcopal church is probably not for you.

You don't even have to be conservative to have an issue with the Episcopal church today. Episcopals have always been a more moderate to liberal Protestant denomination, and even the moderates are breaking away from the national church.

Anonymous wrote:I don't know much about the Presbyterians, but as somebody who has spent a lot of time in the Episcopal church as an adult only (not born and raised in the church), here's my two cents. I liked that the Episcopals are very similar to the Catholics (at least on paper), with similar services/masses, reading schedule, similar rituals, etc, but increasingly the church is just making stuff up as they go that isn't rooted in scripture or liturgy. I could give many examples, but in my church for example, our priests have rejected the teaching of no sex before marriage. One of the priests said that such a teaching is simply unrealistic in today's world, so there's no need to even talk about it anymore. The Episcopals are very welcoming to all, but the emphasis is on belonging rather than believing in anything. Even among clergy there are very inconsistent beliefs on core liturgy. In my former church, we recited the Nicene Creed, yet one of the priests openly rejects most of what is contained in the Creed. There's no talk whatsoever about sin, yet lots of talk about racial issues, gun control, gay rights, etc. Differing voices have no forum and receive no concern. My takeaway was that the church loved everybody until somebody disagreed, and then all bets were off. The extreme liberalism and stray from scripture has caused about half of Episcopal congregations to break off from the national US church and join the more conservative African churches (called the schism). Attendance in the remaining US churches keeps falling at a rapid rate. Basically, the Episcopal Church is a place where you can believe anything you want and you'll always get a pat on the back no matter what you do, say, or believe. In the end, that wasn't appealing to me and wasn't allowing me to grow either personally or spiritually, so I left the church.

I think this proves that if you're conservative, OP, then the Episcopal church is probably not for you.

Previous PP wrote: "I believe both churches follow the idea of transubstantiation."

Actually, neither believe in transubstantiation. That belief is particular to the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Lutheran believe in consubstantiation, which differs from transubstantiation, but both center on a belief in the real presence in the Eucharist.

Episcopalians/Anglicans do not officially have a particular belief with regard to the nature of the Eucharist; worshippers may believe in transubstantiation, consubstantiation, or simply view the Eucharist as symbolic of the body and blood of Christ.

I am pretty sure that Presbyterians believe that communion is symbolic of Christ's sacrifice for us.

I don't know much about the Presbyterians, but as somebody who has spent a lot of time in the Episcopal church as an adult only (not born and raised in the church), here's my two cents. I liked that the Episcopals are very similar to the Catholics (at least on paper), with similar services/masses, reading schedule, similar rituals, etc, but increasingly the church is just making stuff up as they go that isn't rooted in scripture or liturgy. I could give many examples, but in my church for example, our priests have rejected the teaching of no sex before marriage. One of the priests said that such a teaching is simply unrealistic in today's world, so there's no need to even talk about it anymore. The Episcopals are very welcoming to all, but the emphasis is on belonging rather than believing in anything. Even among clergy there are very inconsistent beliefs on core liturgy. In my former church, we recited the Nicene Creed, yet one of the priests openly rejects most of what is contained in the Creed. There's no talk whatsoever about sin, yet lots of talk about racial issues, gun control, gay rights, etc. Differing voices have no forum and receive no concern. My takeaway was that the church loved everybody until somebody disagreed, and then all bets were off. The extreme liberalism and stray from scripture has caused about half of Episcopal congregations to break off from the national US church and join the more conservative African churches (called the schism). Attendance in the remaining US churches keeps falling at a rapid rate. Basically, the Episcopal Church is a place where you can believe anything you want and you'll always get a pat on the back no matter what you do, say, or believe. In the end, that wasn't appealing to me and wasn't allowing me to grow either personally or spiritually, so I left the church.

Anonymous wrote:Presbyterian USA is a bottom up organization and Episcopal is a top down.

Military is a top down, Girl and Boy Scouts, YMCA are top down

Campfire Girls/Boys, YWCA, elected government are bottom up

Top down: The top layer decides what happen - for the most part
Bottom UP: The membership drive policy and decides what happens.

Top Down- Clergy are assigned to the Congregation (some have some say, but the Bishop has the power)
Bottom Up- Clergy are called by the Congregation.

I've attended by Episcopalian and Presbyterian churches.

The top-down vs. bottom-up aspect is true as far as organizational structure goes, but it's pretty limited way of comparing these churches. The comparison with the military and Boy Scouts actually seems pretty broad and not a little fatuous.

More relevant is comparing theologies. Obviously the theologies, being Christian, are broadly similar in regards to Christ's divinity, the resurrection, et cetera. The Presbyterian church started out in Scotland as following the idea of predestination (only a few, who are elected at birth, will go to heaven), but thankfully they've moved off that. I believe both churches follow the idea of transubstantiation.

As far as individual interpretation and belief go, both churches offer considerable latitude. The Presbyterian church does place a lot of emphasis on believers having a direct route to God, with ministers having a lesser role. That said, the Episcopalian church doesn't use priests as intercessors between the worshiper and God in the way that, for example, the Catholic church does. (I'm not a Catholic basher, and I respect the Catholic church a lot; I'm just pointing out differences in belief.) In both churches, it's highly unlikely (I'd almost say, nearly impossible) a priest or minister would exclude a member who questions tenets, although they might try to convince you. As I said, I say this as somebody who has attended both Episcopalian and Presbyterian churches.

I'm guessing, based on OP's choice of these two churches, that OP is looking for a liberal church in the sense of theology and/or diversity. Presbyterian "bright light" churches are very welcoming to LGBT and, at least 2-3 years ago, some were offering marriage-type ceremonies, although these were not official church weddings and were not offered in all Presbyterian churches. Episcopal churches universally welcome gays, in fact quite a few Episcopal priests are gay so you might say that tolerance for LGBT is a top-down policy.

Presbyterian USA is a bottom up organization and Episcopal is a top down.

Military is a top down, Girl and Boy Scouts, YMCA are top down

Campfire Girls/Boys, YWCA, elected government are bottom up

Top down: The top layer decides what happen - for the most part
Bottom UP: The membership drive policy and decides what happens.

Top Down- Clergy are assigned to the Congregation (some have some say, but the Bishop has the power)
Bottom Up- Clergy are called by the Congregation.

Anonymous wrote:OP, I am a life long Presbyterian and am now an Elder in the Presbyterian church. This is a good question, but I would advise you to take your research to sources other than DCUM. Here, I'm predicting, you will get a mixed bag of personal interpretations that people sort of think they know about the two denominations, if you know what I mean. Also, things can vary at least somewhat between different congregations in different places.

I would go to the official church web sites of each of these, and read up. Both will detail their official teachings and beliefs in many areas. From there, you can explore different churches (large/ small, city/ suburban, etc.) to see how strictly they follow the official teachings.

I went to the presbyterian church and was already surprised to see that it had splintered into 3 different groups. I grew up presbyterian, but had a friend suggest I might also like the episcopalian church ( it's been many years since I belonged to a church). I guess I'm looking for a basic run down to see if her suggestion makes any sense at all.

OP, I am a life long Presbyterian and am now an Elder in the Presbyterian church. This is a good question, but I would advise you to take your research to sources other than DCUM. Here, I'm predicting, you will get a mixed bag of personal interpretations that people sort of think they know about the two denominations, if you know what I mean. Also, things can vary at least somewhat between different congregations in different places.

I would go to the official church web sites of each of these, and read up. Both will detail their official teachings and beliefs in many areas. From there, you can explore different churches (large/ small, city/ suburban, etc.) to see how strictly they follow the official teachings.

Presbyterian church USA

Which branch of the Presbyterian church?

Does anyone have a shorthand description of how their beliefs agree/differ?