Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: I'm sorry to sound so pedantic on this, but this understanding is of eternal consequence.

Why do you think so? If I'm faithful and do good works, what will the eternal consequence be, in your opinion?

We should all be faithful and do good works. The point is that we cannot trust those good works, in any way at all, to be what saves us. We must only trust in the good work of Christ to save us. Our good works are evidence of that trust. If we are relying on good works to save us, and if we believe, as the Catholic church teaches, that we must do certain good works in order to be justified by God, then we are not saved. Galatians 3:10-12: "For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” The clear teaching is that if you are relying on doing good works, that is, observing the Law, then you are obligated to keep all of the Law. And if you do not, then you are under the curse, which is both physical and spiritual death. But if we place our faith solely in the righteousness of Christ, then "we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10)

Good works are great! But they are the evidence of our salvation, and not, in any way, the cause of it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's faith AND works. Get it? Not JUST works.

If you just believe, and do bad things, you are saved? That's crazy talk to me.

Literal interpretation means relying on what the Bible says, literally. As in people who believe Adam and Eve is a literal story and the Earth was created 6,000 years ago.

I get what you're saying, but that's not what Scripture says. If you truly place your faith in Christ, you are filled with the Holy Spirit, who convicts of sin, encourages us to live righteously and disciplines when we don't. But the Bible clearly says we are not saved by works. Isaiah 64:6 says, "All our righteousness is as filthy rags." And I get what you're saying about literal interpretation, but Paul's laying out of the theology behind this is cannot be construed as metaphor. We must rely on a plain reading of the text, which says we cannot count on our works to save us. Try the entire book of Galatians. Romans, as well. Romans 4:2-5 says, "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness." Romans 6:23 says, "The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord." I'm sorry to sound so pedantic on this, but this understanding is of eternal consequence.

This is why evangelicals are so horrible. They legitimately believe that they can do whatever they want and God has to accept them. That's why they're such fucking stingy haters to everyone else.

Anonymous wrote:It's faith AND works. Get it? Not JUST works.

If you just believe, and do bad things, you are saved? That's crazy talk to me.

Literal interpretation means relying on what the Bible says, literally. As in people who believe Adam and Eve is a literal story and the Earth was created 6,000 years ago.

Further, 1 John 3:4-10: "Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he (Christ) appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother."

I hope this clarifies this point, further. We are born of God, that is, made righteous through faith in Christ. After that, we are given the Holy Spirit to help us live out a Christian life, which bears fruit in love and good works. No one who has truly been made righteous through faith in Christ will claim that they can sin all they want with impunity, and when they do sin, they are filled with unease and sorrow. But it is not our works that save us. I think it is merely the case that many people who claim to be Christians have not really trusted in Christ. Jesus said, "You shall know them by their fruits." (Matthew 7:16)

About a quarter of the members of the Episcopal church I belong to were born Catholic (including me). The format and structure of the service is familiar and comforting to Catholics, and the tenets track with what you say you are seeking. Absolutely no bible-thumping and not big on the literal interpretation. Our priest last Sunday came dangerously close to saying that the virgin birth may have been embellished by the gospel writers to address issues in the early church.

Anonymous wrote: I'm sorry to sound so pedantic on this, but this understanding is of eternal consequence.

Why do you think so? If I'm faithful and do good works, what will the eternal consequence be, in your opinion?

Anonymous wrote:It's faith AND works. Get it? Not JUST works.

If you just believe, and do bad things, you are saved? That's crazy talk to me.

Literal interpretation means relying on what the Bible says, literally. As in people who believe Adam and Eve is a literal story and the Earth was created 6,000 years ago.

I get what you're saying, but that's not what Scripture says. If you truly place your faith in Christ, you are filled with the Holy Spirit, who convicts of sin, encourages us to live righteously and disciplines when we don't. But the Bible clearly says we are not saved by works. Isaiah 64:6 says, "All our righteousness is as filthy rags." And I get what you're saying about literal interpretation, but Paul's laying out of the theology behind this is cannot be construed as metaphor. We must rely on a plain reading of the text, which says we cannot count on our works to save us. Try the entire book of Galatians. Romans, as well. Romans 4:2-5 says, "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness." Romans 6:23 says, "The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord." I'm sorry to sound so pedantic on this, but this understanding is of eternal consequence.

What's your point, PP?

Anonymous wrote:Hey OP, I am Catholic and think you will find many Catholics who aren't heavily into Mary, transubstantiation, and confession. We are cafeteria Catholics -- partly because posts like 20:17's give us pause. Some Protestants' literal interpretation of the Bible makes us nervous.

Protestants think you can get to Heaven based on faith alone. Catholics believe you should have faith AND do good works. There's no free lunch for Bible believers who do crappy things in Catholicism, which is the Protestant line as far as I can tell.

As far as Protestants go, Episcopalians are somewhat tempting. Ritual without politics.

Luke 18:9-14: "Jesus also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

It's faith AND works. Get it? Not JUST works.

If you just believe, and do bad things, you are saved? That's crazy talk to me.

Literal interpretation means relying on what the Bible says, literally. As in people who believe Adam and Eve is a literal story and the Earth was created 6,000 years ago.

Anonymous wrote:Hey OP, I am Catholic and think you will find many Catholics who aren't heavily into Mary, transubstantiation, and confession. We are cafeteria Catholics -- partly because posts like 20:17's give us pause. Some Protestants' literal interpretation of the Bible makes us nervous.

Protestants think you can get to Heaven based on faith alone. Catholics believe you should have faith AND do good works. There's no free lunch for Bible believers who do crappy things in Catholicism, which is the Protestant line as far as I can tell.

As far as Protestants go, Episcopalians are somewhat tempting. Ritual without politics.

To this PP, I would like to respectfully point you to Scripture, which is abundantly clear that our good works do not and cannot save us, and that if we count on them to do so, we are not saved. I don't understand your point about a "literal interpretation" of this. This is what the Bible says. If you read the words, you can plainly see that that is what the Bible says. Ephesians 2:8-9 says that "we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH, not of works, lest any man should boast." God will not have us on Heaven's doorstep pointing to our actions here on earth and saying that He owes us a place there. I implore you out of a loving, human concern to search out Scripture on this point and prayerfully ask God to make this plain to you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven't been there, done that, but I wanted to add an encouraging word.

I have no doubt that there are many sincere Christians who are Catholic, but if you follow strict Catholic teaching, you're getting way off-base concerning Scripture. The Bible teaches there is no other way to God except through Christ alone, and as nearly as I can tell, the Catholic church teaches Christ plus some of your own works (attending mass, communion, etc).

You are correct about Transubstantiation. Catholic teaching on this is tantamount to a continual sacrifice of Christ, who the Bible says died once for all the sins of all men. The Bible says to do it as a memorial to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, and it does not impart salvation.

And there are no "mortal sins," as all sin separates us from God. We all can find complete forgiveness of all sin through putting our total trust in Christ. Eternal life is a gift of God, not through anything we do. (Ephesians 2:8-9).

The Bible is a wonderful source of freedom and joy. I suggest reading the books of Galatians and Ephesians as a start.

I hope you will find a good Bible-teaching church, and I will pray for you to do so. God bless.

Yeah, non-Catholics generally think they can do whatever they want, since God has to love them anyway "because grace."

No serious, Bible-believing Christian thinks this or espouses this. And Christians are told the exact opposite in Scripture, which is why it is a good idea to study the Bible. Romans 6:1-2: "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who have died to sin still live in it?" Also, Galatians 5:13: "For you were called to freedom... only do not use your freedom as an occasion for the flesh (that is, sin), but in love, serve one another." But neither are we condemned for any sin we do commit, if we place our faith in Christ. Romans 8:1: "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus." Lots of people can say whatever they want, but those who truly put their trust in Christ will fully struggle with their sin as they work it out of their lives. But we are not perfected until we enter eternity.

Hey OP, I am Catholic and think you will find many Catholics who aren't heavily into Mary, transubstantiation, and confession. We are cafeteria Catholics -- partly because posts like 20:17's give us pause. Some Protestants' literal interpretation of the Bible makes us nervous.

Protestants think you can get to Heaven based on faith alone. Catholics believe you should have faith AND do good works. There's no free lunch for Bible believers who do crappy things in Catholicism, which is the Protestant line as far as I can tell.

As far as Protestants go, Episcopalians are somewhat tempting. Ritual without politics.

Anonymous wrote:I haven't been there, done that, but I wanted to add an encouraging word.

I have no doubt that there are many sincere Christians who are Catholic, but if you follow strict Catholic teaching, you're getting way off-base concerning Scripture. The Bible teaches there is no other way to God except through Christ alone, and as nearly as I can tell, the Catholic church teaches Christ plus some of your own works (attending mass, communion, etc).

You are correct about Transubstantiation. Catholic teaching on this is tantamount to a continual sacrifice of Christ, who the Bible says died once for all the sins of all men. The Bible says to do it as a memorial to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, and it does not impart salvation.

And there are no "mortal sins," as all sin separates us from God. We all can find complete forgiveness of all sin through putting our total trust in Christ. Eternal life is a gift of God, not through anything we do. (Ephesians 2:8-9).

The Bible is a wonderful source of freedom and joy. I suggest reading the books of Galatians and Ephesians as a start.

I hope you will find a good Bible-teaching church, and I will pray for you to do so. God bless.

Yeah, non-Catholics generally think they can do whatever they want, since God has to love them anyway "because grace."

I haven't been there, done that, but I wanted to add an encouraging word.

I have no doubt that there are many sincere Christians who are Catholic, but if you follow strict Catholic teaching, you're getting way off-base concerning Scripture. The Bible teaches there is no other way to God except through Christ alone, and as nearly as I can tell, the Catholic church teaches Christ plus some of your own works (attending mass, communion, etc).

You are correct about Transubstantiation. Catholic teaching on this is tantamount to a continual sacrifice of Christ, who the Bible says died once for all the sins of all men. The Bible says to do it as a memorial to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, and it does not impart salvation.

And there are no "mortal sins," as all sin separates us from God. We all can find complete forgiveness of all sin through putting our total trust in Christ. Eternal life is a gift of God, not through anything we do. (Ephesians 2:8-9).

The Bible is a wonderful source of freedom and joy. I suggest reading the books of Galatians and Ephesians as a start.

I hope you will find a good Bible-teaching church, and I will pray for you to do so. God bless.

Cradle Catholic, feel myself eventually deciding to go Protestant in future (I'm in my 40s).

This isn't about scandals or anything, but rather realizing I believe the Eucharist is representative of Christ (not Transubstantiation), never been heavily into Mary, saying rosary, going to confession (although I do it). I feel I should be with God when and where I want, not necessarily each Sunday at Mass. Want to see different sides of Scripture and not what we're told by Rome, etc.

There's no anger, just my thinking there's no point in staying the course. DS has one year until confirmation and then I'd like him to decide if he wants to remain Catholic or come with me to a Protestant church, etc (DH was raised Protestant but doesn't really attend now).

Has anyone BTDT?

* It would be helpful if this didn't devolve into an anti-Catholic hateful thread, thanks.