Muslima wrote:
The Op asked what Islam said about divorce and that's what I responded to. The fact that some imams don't follow this has nothing to do with Islam. Just like in the US, you will find Christian, Jewish, atheists, ect women who have to fight for years to get a divorce. Every case is different and the complexities of divorce or each case can't be summed up here. There is nothing in the text of the Quran or hadiths that make getting a divorce difficult, not for the woman or the man, really it shouldn't be that difficult. Citing examples about women who couldn't get a divorce for x, y reason doesn't change this either and saying it's hard to find an imam to grant a divorce to a woman is really false. I know a multitude of women who got divorced here in the US and in Muslim countries and I have yet had to meet one who had any issues of getting a divorce or an imam who refused to grant her a divorce, not a single one. In fact I am one of those women. I got divorced at my request and it took 5 minutes if that much , really lol.

Our niece in KSA had to pay her drug addicted husband 50K before he would agree to a divorce. He'd show up to court stoned out of his mind wearing dark glasses, and the judge would still say, you need sabr, my daughter, go home and reconcile with your husband.

Muslima wrote:
As far as children custody, saying some women are denied custody after a certain age is not correct. There are clear custody rules as well and all the 4 schools of though of Islam have different custody rulings. But for all of them, when the kids are young, they stay with the mother. If she remarries, the father gets custody. In practice though , this is rarely followed, all women that I know still had custody of their kids even after remarriage, men usually never go back to court just for custody, not saying some don't, but most do not.

I think you need to make up your mind whether the scripture or the practice matters most. In your first paragraph you say that what is in the Quran matters most, and it doesn't matter what some imams do. In this paragraph you say that fathers are entitled to custody if the mother remarries but it rarely happens in practice. If you are all about the scripture, then what happens in practice shouldn't matter. If you are all about the practice, then what is written in the scripture shouldn't matter. You cannot remain intellectually honest and say that it doesn't matter what some imams do but it matters what some fathers do.

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Above is for men. Women do not have the right of divorce automatically, although they can write it into the marriage contract. Obviously, however, writing it in raises eyebrows so socially may be difficult to pull off.

Other than that, a woman can petition the Islamic court for a divorce for cause. Depending on the country, this could be extremely hard to obtain, even with more dire reasons like the husband is imprisoned or is a drug addict. Taking a second wife would not be cause for divorce as Muslim men are permitted more than one wife.

False again! Both men and women have the right to get a divorce for any reason and yes you can get a divorce if your husband gets a 2nd wife, you can get a divorce if you hate his guts , you can get a divorce just because you don't like him, really you can get a divorce for almost anything. The only difference between a husband and wife is
1., A husband has the right to divorce his wife at any time by just saying I divorce you and having the intention to divorce her.
2. A wife needs to ask for her husband to divorce her, ie she can't just say I divorce you and sever the marriage. She had to ask him and he has to agree to divorce her. If he doesn't agree, she can go to any imam and ask for a divorce, at which point the imam will grant a divorce whether the husband wants it or not.

True--forgot the step where she can ask her husband to divorce her because in practice this is often not readily agreed to. There are plenty of cases where the religious authorities will not grant the woman her request to divorce where her husband disagrees but rather encourage her to try reconciliation instead.

As I said, this depends on the country--imams in Lebanon would more likely grant the request than those in Afghanistan. But it is not a walk in the park in the U.S. even. As this article shows, women often go "imam shopping" for years to find one that will grant her a divorce, even in relatively straightforward cases of physical abuse.

http://www.arabamericannews.com/news/news/id_7475


Also, in cases of divorce women are almost always denied custody of their children if they are over a certain age.

The Op asked what Islam said about divorce and that's what I responded to. The fact that some imams don't follow this has nothing to do with Islam. Just like in the US, you will find Christian, Jewish, atheists, ect women who have to fight for years to get a divorce. Every case is different and the complexities of divorce or each case can't be summed up here. There is nothing in the text of the Quran or hadiths that makegetting a divorce difficult, not for the woman or the man, really it shouldn't be that difficult. Citing examples about women who couldn't get a divorce for x, y reason doesn't change this either and saying it's hard to find an imam to grant a divorce to a woman is really false. I know a multitude of women who got divorced here in the US and in Muslim countries and I have yet had to meet one who had any issues of getting a divorce or an imam who refused to grant her a divorce, not a single one. In fact I am one of those women. I got divorced at my request and it took 5 minutes if that much , really lol.

As far as children custody, saying some women are denied custody after a certain age is not correct. There are clear custody rules as well and all the 4 schools of though of Islam have different custody rulings. But for all of them, when the kids are young, they stay with the mother. If she remarries, the father gets custody. In practice though , this is rarely followed, all women that I know still had custody of their kids even after remarriage, men usually never go back to court just for custody, not saying some don't, but most do not.

True,if the children are young, the mother gets custody, with the husband having the right to custody once they are older. Age does depend upon the school. But if the children are over this age, custody almost always goes to the father. If the mother had custody first, he may or may not petition for custody when the children come of age depending on his changed circumstances.

Obviously, if this is happening in the US, custody will be determined based on US civil law.

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:.

Op, yes divorce is allowed in Islam. Both muslim men and women have been getting divorces since the 7th century.  The only time a divorce cant be granted is when the woman is menstruating or if she is pregnant. Also , there is a 3 months waiting period called the Iddah , I guess this would be similar to separation period, before the divorce becomes final. During the iddah, the couple can reconcile which will nullify the divorce but after the iddah, they have to remarry If they want to get back together.

No, not "the couple can reconcile". The man decides whether he takes the wife back or not during these three months. The wife's opinion is not a factor.

That's completely false. Wives are not animals. The wife has an opinion and a say in this, there is no Forced Marriage in Islam

It's in the article that you yourself posted.
"In case divorce happens through the husband, he can take his wife back within three months."

If the wife does not wish to reconcile during a three-month separation period after the husband-initiated divorce, she will need to start her own divorce proceedings. In a husband-initiated divorce, it's the husband decision alone that decides whether the wife is divorced or kept.

Muslima wrote:

Op, yes divorce is allowed in Islam. Both muslim men and women have been getting divorces since the 7th century.  The only time a divorce cant be granted is when the woman is menstruating or if she is pregnant. Also , there is a 3 months waiting period called the Iddah , I guess this would be similar to separation period, before the divorce becomes final. During the iddah, the couple can reconcile which will nullify the divorce but after the iddah, they have to remarry If they want to get back together.

Again, no, not the "couple can reconcile". The man is allowed to change his mind on whether or not he really wants to divorce. It's a unilateral decision, not a couple decision.

Muslima wrote:The article below is comprehensive.

It may be. It's also very region-specific as not everything written there happens everywhere, and it's also not the law everywhere. The use of terminology proves as much.

Muslima wrote:
Men have the right to divorce. If a man dislikes keeping his marriage for any reason, he divorces his wife and compensates her financially by paying her what is termed mut'a payment. This is in addition to the regular financial sustenance for her living, in case she has the custody of their children.

Not necessarily and most certainly not the law. In the subcontinent, a "deferred dowry" is a popular option, i.e. if you divorce my daughter, you'll pay her X. In the Gulf, this is addressed through a high initial dowry paid before the marriage is concluded. Marriage in Islam is a civil contract, not a sacrament, so whatever you write in your marital agreement goes.

Muslima wrote:
In case it is the woman's desire to end the marriage, the situation becomes different. Her reasons might be that she has received ill treatment, the husband is unable to sustain her financially or he is sexually impotent. She can prove these defects in front of the judge, then the judge grants her divorce with a full access to all her financial rights.
Also, if the husband was good to her but she does not want to keep on for an emotional reason, then she asks for what is termed khul'. This means to be granted divorce but without any access for financial rights, plusin case of Khul the husband has the right to ask for his dowry back.

Any of these scenarios require consent of husband and consent of a judge. There is no black-and-white requirement to agree to a woman's petition to divorce. It's very imam-specific. The only ironclad way for a woman to guarantee divorce at will is to write it into her marital contract.

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:.

Op, yes divorce is allowed in Islam. Both muslim men and women have been getting divorces since the 7th century.  The only time a divorce cant be granted is when the woman is menstruating or if she is pregnant. Also , there is a 3 months waiting period called the Iddah , I guess this would be similar to separation period, before the divorce becomes final. During the iddah, the couple can reconcile which will nullify the divorce but after the iddah, they have to remarry If they want to get back together.

No, not "the couple can reconcile". The man decides whether he takes the wife back or not during these three months. The wife's opinion is not a factor.

That's completely false. Wives are not animals. The wife has an opinion and a say in this, there is no Forced Marriage in Islam

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Above is for men. Women do not have the right of divorce automatically, although they can write it into the marriage contract. Obviously, however, writing it in raises eyebrows so socially may be difficult to pull off.

Other than that, a woman can petition the Islamic court for a divorce for cause. Depending on the country, this could be extremely hard to obtain, even with more dire reasons like the husband is imprisoned or is a drug addict. Taking a second wife would not be cause for divorce as Muslim men are permitted more than one wife.

False again! Both men and women have the right to get a divorce for any reason and yes you can get a divorce if your husband gets a 2nd wife, you can get a divorce if you hate his guts , you can get a divorce just because you don't like him, really you can get a divorce for almost anything. The only difference between a husband and wife is
1., A husband has the right to divorce his wife at any time by just saying I divorce you and having the intention to divorce her.
2. A wife needs to ask for her husband to divorce her, ie she can't just say I divorce you and sever the marriage. She had to ask him and he has to agree to divorce her. If he doesn't agree, she can go to any imam and ask for a divorce, at which point the imam will grant a divorce whether the husband wants it or not.

True--forgot the step where she can ask her husband to divorce her because in practice this is often not readily agreed to. There are plenty of cases where the religious authorities will not grant the woman her request to divorce where her husband disagrees but rather encourage her to try reconciliation instead.

As I said, this depends on the country--imams in Lebanon would more likely grant the request than those in Afghanistan. But it is not a walk in the park in the U.S. even. As this article shows, women often go "imam shopping" for years to find one that will grant her a divorce, even in relatively straightforward cases of physical abuse.

http://www.arabamericannews.com/news/news/id_7475


Also, in cases of divorce women are almost always denied custody of their children if they are over a certain age.

The Op asked what Islam said about divorce and that's what I responded to. The fact that some imams don't follow this has nothing to do with Islam. Just like in the US, you will find Christian, Jewish, atheists, ect women who have to fight for years to get a divorce. Every case is different and the complexities of divorce or each case can't be summed up here. There is nothing in the text of the Quran or hadiths that makegetting a divorce difficult, not for the woman or the man, really it shouldn't be that difficult. Citing examples about women who couldn't get a divorce for x, y reason doesn't change this either and saying it's hard to find an imam to grant a divorce to a woman is really false. I know a multitude of women who got divorced here in the US and in Muslim countries and I have yet had to meet one who had any issues of getting a divorce or an imam who refused to grant her a divorce, not a single one. In fact I am one of those women. I got divorced at my request and it took 5 minutes if that much , really lol.

As far as children custody, saying some women are denied custody after a certain age is not correct. There are clear custody rules as well and all the 4 schools of though of Islam have different custody rulings. But for all of them, when the kids are young, they stay with the mother. If she remarries, the father gets custody. In practice though , this is rarely followed, all women that I know still had custody of their kids even after remarriage, men usually never go back to court just for custody, not saying some don't, but most do not.

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:.

Op, yes divorce is allowed in Islam. Both muslim men and women have been getting divorces since the 7th century.  The only time a divorce cant be granted is when the woman is menstruating or if she is pregnant. Also , there is a 3 months waiting period called the Iddah , I guess this would be similar to separation period, before the divorce becomes final. During the iddah, the couple can reconcile which will nullify the divorce but after the iddah, they have to remarry If they want to get back together.

No, not "the couple can reconcile". The man decides whether he takes the wife back or not during these three months. The wife's opinion is not a factor.

Yes divorce is allowed, though disliked and therefore discouraged. However, if someone is unhappy and unfulfilled in a marriage, the divorce is allowed.

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Above is for men. Women do not have the right of divorce automatically, although they can write it into the marriage contract. Obviously, however, writing it in raises eyebrows so socially may be difficult to pull off.

Other than that, a woman can petition the Islamic court for a divorce for cause. Depending on the country, this could be extremely hard to obtain, even with more dire reasons like the husband is imprisoned or is a drug addict. Taking a second wife would not be cause for divorce as Muslim men are permitted more than one wife.

False again! Both men and women have the right to get a divorce for any reason and yes you can get a divorce if your husband gets a 2nd wife, you can get a divorce if you hate his guts , you can get a divorce just because you don't like him, really you can get a divorce for almost anything. The only difference between a husband and wife is
1., A husband has the right to divorce his wife at any time by just saying I divorce you and having the intention to divorce her.
2. A wife needs to ask for her husband to divorce her, ie she can't just say I divorce you and sever the marriage. She had to ask him and he has to agree to divorce her. If he doesn't agree, she can go to any imam and ask for a divorce, at which point the imam will grant a divorce whether the husband wants it or not.

True--forgot the step where she can ask her husband to divorce her because in practice this is often not readily agreed to. There are plenty of cases where the religious authorities will not grant the woman her request to divorce where her husband disagrees but rather encourage her to try reconciliation instead.

As I said, this depends on the country--imams in Lebanon would more likely grant the request than those in Afghanistan. But it is not a walk in the park in the U.S. even. As this article shows, women often go "imam shopping" for years to find one that will grant her a divorce, even in relatively straightforward cases of physical abuse.

http://www.arabamericannews.com/news/news/id_7475


Also, in cases of divorce women are almost always denied custody of their children if they are over a certain age.

Anonymous wrote:.

Op, yes divorce is allowed in Islam. Both muslim men and women have been getting divorces since the 7th century.  The only time a divorce cant be granted is when the woman is menstruating or if she is pregnant. Also , there is a 3 months waiting period called the Iddah , I guess this would be similar to separation period, before the divorce becomes final. During the iddah, the couple can reconcile which will nullify the divorce but after the iddah, they have to remarry If they want to get back together. The article below is comprehensive:


Divorce as a last option:
Although divorce being allowed in Islam is a sign of the lenience and practical nature of the Islamic legal system, keeping the unity of the family is considered a priority for the sake of the children. For this reason, divorce is always a last choice, after exhausting all possible means of reconciliation. For example, Allah addresses men asking them to try hard to keep the marriage, even if they dislike their wives:
... live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good.
- Surah 4 Verse 19
Also the following verse is addressed to women asking them the same thing:
If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; ...
- Surah 4 Verse 128
Again, the following verse is addressed to the family or the society for the same purpose of rescuing this bond, which God did not make easy to break:
If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, God will cause their reconciliation: For God hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.
- Surah 4 Verse 35 But, if after exhausting all methods of reconciliation, the hatred between the husband and wife is still greater than tolerance, then divorce becomes inevitable. Here comes the genius of the Islamic law, which holds practical, rather than unrealistic approaches, towards real situations. The ultimate aims of marriage, as well as any other aspect of human life, are to achieve happiness and virtue. So, when people are denied their right to end an unhappy marriage, these two aims are seriously violated. This is, as the couple will live in suffering, which may lead them to marital infidelity. Thus divorce in this case – if weighed up to the disaster of family disintegration - will be less disastrous.

Methods of divorce:
Men have the right to divorce. If a man dislikes keeping his marriage for any reason, he divorces his wife and compensates her financially by paying her what is termed mut'a payment. This is in addition to the regular financial sustenance for her living, in case she has the custody of their children.
Divorce becomes in effect once the husband utters or writes down any of the legal formulae of divorce such as: ‘I divorce you’ or ‘you are divorced’…etc. The husband can do these either by himself or through a messenger.

In case it is the woman's desire to end the marriage, the situation becomes different. Her reasons might be that she has received ill treatment, the husband is unable to sustain her financially or he is sexually impotent. She can prove these defects in front of the judge, then the judge grants her divorce with a full access to all her financial rights.
Also, if the husband was good to her but she does not want to keep on for an emotional reason, then she asks for what is termed khul'. This means to be granted divorce but without any access for financial rights, plusin case of Khul the husband has the right to ask for his dowry back

Categories of divorce:
Divorce is of three categories:
•    raj'i (returnable) 
•    baynounah soghra (minor separation) 
•    or baynouna kobra (major separation). 
In case divorce happens through the husband, he can take his wife back within three months. This is without any legal procedures, if they decide it - like they regret their rushing in divorce. In this case, the divorce is termed as raj'i or returnable divorce.
But in case of khul', which is the second category, the husband can't remarry his divorcée till all the legal procedures are done, all over again, and the husband pays new dowry for her.
Divorce can happen three times in the couple's lifetime. The third divorce falls in the third category, because they cannot go back to one another, till after the wife ‘happens’ to marry someone else, then ‘happens’ to get divorced by him. In this case, she can go back to her first husband. Such a tough rule was made as a punishment and a way of preventing people from misusing this tolerant ruling of permitting divorce. The word ‘happens’ is parenthesized because the woman's new marriage and divorce should come naturally without planning, as many people might do to legalize her return to the first husband!

When does divorce become invalid?
In some cases, uttering the words of divorce become invalid. Among these cases is when the husband is:
1.    Drunk. 
2.    Forced to utter them by someone else. 
3.    In a complete loss of temper to the extent that he is unaware of what he is saying. 
4.    In an abnormal state of mind, such as temporary madness, epilepsy or in a coma. 
In such cases, divorce is null and void.

Post divorce procedures:
After divorce, it is obligatory for the woman not to get married to another man, except after three complete menstruation cycles, if she is not pregnant. If she is, then she has to wait till she gives birth, so that the paternity of the child is not confused. This period of time is termed as ‘iddah. However, even if the woman no longer has menstruations (e.g. after menopause), she should still wait for three months. So there is more to the 'iddah than just the issue of paternity.

 

Source: islamonline.com

Anonymous wrote:Above is for men. Women do not have the right of divorce automatically, although they can write it into the marriage contract. Obviously, however, writing it in raises eyebrows so socially may be difficult to pull off.

Other than that, a woman can petition the Islamic court for a divorce for cause. Depending on the country, this could be extremely hard to obtain, even with more dire reasons like the husband is imprisoned or is a drug addict. Taking a second wife would not be cause for divorce as Muslim men are permitted more than one wife.

False again! Both men and women have the right to get a divorce for any reason and yes you can get a divorce if your husband gets a 2nd wife, you can get a divorce if you hate his guts , you can get a divorce just because you don't like him, really you can get a divorce for almost anything. The only difference between a husband and wife is
1., A husband has the right to divorce his wife at any time by just saying I divorce you and having the intention to divorce her.
2. A wife needs to ask for her husband to divorce her, ie she can't just say I divorce you and sever the marriage. She had to ask him and he has to agree to divorce her. If he doesn't agree, she can go to any imam and ask for a divorce, at which point the imam will grant a divorce whether the husband wants it or not.

Anonymous wrote:You have to say Talaq, Talaq, Talaq - 3 times to your wife in front of witnesses.

If you divorce her once and want to remarry her, she will need to marry another person first, consummate that marriage and hope that he divorces her before you can marry her again.


A clever way to ensure that people do not divorce for trivial reasons.

This is completely false!! First of all you do not need to say Talaq to your wife 3 times for a divorce to happen. 2nd of all, you can remarry your spouse 3 times after divorcing her 3 times. The only time she has to marry someone else before you can remarry her is after the 3rd divorce between the same 2 spouses, and yes this would be to prevent trivial divorces

Above is for men. Women do not have the right of divorce automatically, although they can write it into the marriage contract. Obviously, however, writing it in raises eyebrows so socially may be difficult to pull off.

Other than that, a woman can petition the Islamic court for a divorce for cause. Depending on the country, this could be extremely hard to obtain, even with more dire reasons like the husband is imprisoned or is a drug addict. Taking a second wife would not be cause for divorce as Muslim men are permitted more than one wife.

You have to say Talaq, Talaq, Talaq - 3 times to your wife in front of witnesses.

If you divorce her once and want to remarry her, she will need to marry another person first, consummate that marriage and hope that he divorces her before you can marry her again.


A clever way to ensure that people do not divorce for trivial reasons.

.