Anonymous
09/30/2014 10:39
Subject: What the Lancet says about near death experiences
My mother had a NDE very much like the one described in Lancet following a car accident. She vividly remembers looking down on her body as the ER staff tended to her. She didn't feel any fear, or any deep desire to "live" - just peacefulness.
50 years later, she isn't remotely religious. But she is much less worried about death.
50 years later, she isn't remotely religious. But she is much less worried about death.
Anonymous
09/30/2014 09:42
Subject: What the Lancet says about near death experiences
See, I don't understand why it should be hard for athiests to swallow. If it is shown, using science, that there is some thing called a soul, and it lives after death in a way that has been, until now, mysterious and unmeasurable, that does not prove God. And I'm a believer. It proves only what you can measure and show - that there is something we previously weren't aware of. That is what is so amazing and awe inspiring about science to me - that it gives us tools to continually explore the unknown, and know the unknown. I don't think God operates in ways that are outside of science - in other words, I don't believe in the "supernatural" - things that are outside of natural laws - but I do believe that we don't have the tools to explore maybe 99.999% of the universe yet. Including God.
Anonymous
09/30/2014 01:29
Subject: What the Lancet says about near death experiences
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:There was actually a really interesting book written a year or two ago by the guy running the study on NDE where he runs through the history and evidence and his study. Its fascinating. He does not conclude that there is a God, but says that SOMETHING is happening after death that we don't understand. Look, my view is that everything is describable by science. That is what science does, describe things. If something is happening after death, it is describable using the scientific method, but perhaps not the tools we have now to measure the world. I am also a Christian, and I don't see those things as opposed. If there is life after death, I don't know why that should be "supernatural," any more than other crazy unknown things in this universe are supernatural. They are just unknown.
I agree with this. Today's science might not have the tools to analyze the "supernatural" but it does not negate an eventual scientific explanation.
I just found an article about the near death experiences of blind people. These are people who were blind from birth, but in a couple of cases, they were able to describe the surgery room, the waiting room, people in the waiting room while they were clinically dead and attempted to be revived in surgery.
Over and over again, near death experiences seem to provide evidence that the consciousness lives on after the body dies. Science can not explain this but it's happened to thousands of people, including people blind from birth.
This is tough to swallow for atheists who will not be able to explain it. But then again, they don't need to, and nor do we need to explain the position of believers.
Anonymous
09/30/2014 01:25
Subject: What the Lancet says about near death experiences
Sorry that post didn't make any sense to me. Even if science could explain Jesus' miracles, it does not make them any less of a miracle. They were miracles because only Jesus (or a few people before) were able to perform these miracles.
Anonymous
09/29/2014 16:12
Subject: What the Lancet says about near death experiences
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:There was actually a really interesting book written a year or two ago by the guy running the study on NDE where he runs through the history and evidence and his study. Its fascinating. He does not conclude that there is a God, but says that SOMETHING is happening after death that we don't understand. Look, my view is that everything is describable by science. That is what science does, describe things. If something is happening after death, it is describable using the scientific method, but perhaps not the tools we have now to measure the world. I am also a Christian, and I don't see those things as opposed. If there is life after death, I don't know why that should be "supernatural," any more than other crazy unknown things in this universe are supernatural. They are just unknown.
For instance, Jesus ascending into heaven would be supernatural, because people just can't rise up without some kind of engine, and if they did, at some point, they couldn't breathe up there. So it requires belief in the supernatural to think that happened. The same with resurrection.
There are many things that are unknown -- like potential cures for some diseases, but you can bet if they find a cure, it will be based on empirical reasoning and experimentation, not on a supernatural event. Unknown and supernatural are not synonyms and I doubt you'd find anyone schooled in theology to say they were.
There are a variety of homeopathic or naturopathic treatments for cancer that have yet to be proven through large scale or double blind tests, but nonetheless they are used and they work on many patients. They are not supernatural and their efficacy is known by those who use it. In fact, in Europe these treatments are more commonplace than here in the US.
Jesus' resurrection and ascension to heaven may not be explained by current science but that may be a reflection of mankind's lack of knowledge.
Also, no one has resurrected and ascended since Jesus but a few people did before -- according to other ancient myths. I suppose if science proved the miracles of Jesus were not miracles after all, then there's be no reason to worship Jesus any more (for those who do)
Anonymous
09/29/2014 15:58
Subject: What the Lancet says about near death experiences
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:There was actually a really interesting book written a year or two ago by the guy running the study on NDE where he runs through the history and evidence and his study. Its fascinating. He does not conclude that there is a God, but says that SOMETHING is happening after death that we don't understand. Look, my view is that everything is describable by science. That is what science does, describe things. If something is happening after death, it is describable using the scientific method, but perhaps not the tools we have now to measure the world. I am also a Christian, and I don't see those things as opposed. If there is life after death, I don't know why that should be "supernatural," any more than other crazy unknown things in this universe are supernatural. They are just unknown.
For instance, Jesus ascending into heaven would be supernatural, because people just can't rise up without some kind of engine, and if they did, at some point, they couldn't breathe up there. So it requires belief in the supernatural to think that happened. The same with resurrection.
There are many things that are unknown -- like potential cures for some diseases, but you can bet if they find a cure, it will be based on empirical reasoning and experimentation, not on a supernatural event. Unknown and supernatural are not synonyms and I doubt you'd find anyone schooled in theology to say they were.
There are a variety of homeopathic or naturopathic treatments for cancer that have yet to be proven through large scale or double blind tests, but nonetheless they are used and they work on many patients. They are not supernatural and their efficacy is known by those who use it. In fact, in Europe these treatments are more commonplace than here in the US.
Jesus' resurrection and ascension to heaven may not be explained by current science but that may be a reflection of mankind's lack of knowledge.
Anonymous
09/29/2014 15:53
Subject: What the Lancet says about near death experiences
Anonymous wrote:There was actually a really interesting book written a year or two ago by the guy running the study on NDE where he runs through the history and evidence and his study. Its fascinating. He does not conclude that there is a God, but says that SOMETHING is happening after death that we don't understand. Look, my view is that everything is describable by science. That is what science does, describe things. If something is happening after death, it is describable using the scientific method, but perhaps not the tools we have now to measure the world. I am also a Christian, and I don't see those things as opposed. If there is life after death, I don't know why that should be "supernatural," any more than other crazy unknown things in this universe are supernatural. They are just unknown.
I agree with this. Today's science might not have the tools to analyze the "supernatural" but it does not negate an eventual scientific explanation.
Anonymous
09/29/2014 15:32
Subject: What the Lancet says about near death experiences
Anonymous wrote:There was actually a really interesting book written a year or two ago by the guy running the study on NDE where he runs through the history and evidence and his study. Its fascinating. He does not conclude that there is a God, but says that SOMETHING is happening after death that we don't understand. Look, my view is that everything is describable by science. That is what science does, describe things. If something is happening after death, it is describable using the scientific method, but perhaps not the tools we have now to measure the world. I am also a Christian, and I don't see those things as opposed. If there is life after death, I don't know why that should be "supernatural," any more than other crazy unknown things in this universe are supernatural. They are just unknown.
For instance, Jesus ascending into heaven would be supernatural, because people just can't rise up without some kind of engine, and if they did, at some point, they couldn't breathe up there. So it requires belief in the supernatural to think that happened. The same with resurrection.
There are many things that are unknown -- like potential cures for some diseases, but you can bet if they find a cure, it will be based on empirical reasoning and experimentation, not on a supernatural event. Unknown and supernatural are not synonyms and I doubt you'd find anyone schooled in theology to say they were.
Anonymous
09/29/2014 14:42
Subject: What the Lancet says about near death experiences
There was actually a really interesting book written a year or two ago by the guy running the study on NDE where he runs through the history and evidence and his study. Its fascinating. He does not conclude that there is a God, but says that SOMETHING is happening after death that we don't understand. Look, my view is that everything is describable by science. That is what science does, describe things. If something is happening after death, it is describable using the scientific method, but perhaps not the tools we have now to measure the world. I am also a Christian, and I don't see those things as opposed. If there is life after death, I don't know why that should be "supernatural," any more than other crazy unknown things in this universe are supernatural. They are just unknown.
Anonymous
09/29/2014 13:47
Subject: What the Lancet says about near death experiences
Anonymous wrote: Science can not explain spiritual experiences. We know the patients had near death experiences, however, and there has to be an explanation for it. Logically, can you think of an explanation then?
Logically, I can say that the scientific explanation as not yet been determined (though maybe it has been since 2001 and I'm not aware of it). Illogically, It could be proof of an afterlife. This is an illogical conclusion, because science operates in the natural world and the concept of an afterlife is supernatural.
Anonymous
09/29/2014 13:32
Subject: What the Lancet says about near death experiences
Anonymous wrote:Why does it matter who the OP was and why she posted the Lancet article?
It doesn't -- just curious as it seems like a similar attempt to prove religion via science. I am the second poster, who provided the link, which I didn't notice in the original post, to confirm that it was a real study. As to your other questions -- simply expressing my thoughts -- others can take them or leave them as they choose.
Anonymous
09/29/2014 13:12
Subject: What the Lancet says about near death experiences
Why does it matter who the OP was and why she posted the Lancet article?
Anonymous
09/29/2014 13:12
Subject: What the Lancet says about near death experiences
PP, you reposted the research study after I already provided the link to the same article in the Lancet. It's the exact same article. You are reposting it to show what?
Second, if the NDE experiencers died within 30 days it shows what? It implies what? The authors of the research article had not postulated a theory about this fact but you seem to be doing so. Please share with us what you think it means.
You concluded from this article that "Researchers acknowledge that they "do not know" why so few report NDE's." What you should have understood from reading this article is the sentence after that, which reads, "With a purely physiological explanation such as cerebral anoxia for the experience, most patients who have been clinically dead should report one." This means no physiological explanation provides for why only some patients had a near death experience and others did not. This means the doctors can not explain near death experience with a purely scientific or medical explanation. This leaves open to the possibility that there is yet another or different explanation for near death experiences, namely a spiritual one. Science can not explain spiritual experiences. We know the patients had near death experiences, however, and there has to be an explanation for it. Logically, can you think of an explanation then?
Second, if the NDE experiencers died within 30 days it shows what? It implies what? The authors of the research article had not postulated a theory about this fact but you seem to be doing so. Please share with us what you think it means.
You concluded from this article that "Researchers acknowledge that they "do not know" why so few report NDE's." What you should have understood from reading this article is the sentence after that, which reads, "With a purely physiological explanation such as cerebral anoxia for the experience, most patients who have been clinically dead should report one." This means no physiological explanation provides for why only some patients had a near death experience and others did not. This means the doctors can not explain near death experience with a purely scientific or medical explanation. This leaves open to the possibility that there is yet another or different explanation for near death experiences, namely a spiritual one. Science can not explain spiritual experiences. We know the patients had near death experiences, however, and there has to be an explanation for it. Logically, can you think of an explanation then?
Anonymous
09/29/2014 12:44
Subject: What the Lancet says about near death experiences
Anonymous wrote:For those who don't know...The Lancet is a weekly peer-reviewed general medical journal. It is one of the world's oldest and best known general medical journals and has been described as one of the most prestigious medical journals in the world. [ from wikipedia]
This shows to those of us who are believers in God and an afterlife that science is on its way to proving what we knew all along!
Here's a report by doctors who say there is something to near death experiences that they can not explain with science. In this Lancet report is the experience of one coronary care nurse also:
During the pilot phase in one of the hospitals, a coronary-care-unit nurse reported a veridical out-of-body experience of a resuscitated patient:
"During a night shift an ambulance brings in a 44-year-old cyanotic, comatose man into the coronary care unit. He had been found about an hour before in a meadow by passers-by. After admission, he receives artificial respiration without intubation, while heart massage and defibrillation are also applied. When we want to intubate the patient, he turns out to have dentures in his mouth. I remove these upper dentures and put them onto the 'crash car'. Meanwhile, we continue extensive CPR. After about an hour and a half the patient has sufficient heart rhythm and blood pressure, but he is still ventilated and intubated, and he is still comatose. He is transferred to the intensive care unit to continue the necessary artificial respiration. Only after more than a week do I meet again with the patient, who is by now back on the cardiac ward. I distribute his medication. The moment he sees me he says: 'Oh, that nurse knows where my dentures are'. I am very surprised. Then he elucidates: 'Yes, you were there when I was brought into hospital and you took my dentures out of my mouth and put them onto that car, it had all these bottles on it and there was this sliding drawer underneath and there you put my teeth.' I was especially amazed because I remembered this happening while the man was in deep coma and in the process of CPR. When I asked further, it appeared the man had seen himself lying in bed, that he had perceived from above how nurses and doctors had been busy with CPR. He was also able to describe correctly and in detail the small room in which he had been resuscitated as well as the appearance of those present like myself. At the time that he observed the situation he had been very much afraid that we would stop CPR and that he would die. And it is true that we had been very negative about the patient's prognosis due to his very poor medical condition when admitted. The patient tells me that he desperately and unsuccessfully tried to make it clear to us that he was still alive and that we should continue CPR. He is deeply impressed by his experience and says he is no longer afraid of death. 4 weeks later he left hospital as a healthy man."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And here is the Lancet article summary:
Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest: a prospective study in the Netherlands
Pim van Lommel, Ruud van Wees, Vincent Meyers, Ingrid Elfferich
Division of Cardiology, Hospital Rijnstate, Arnhem, Netherlands (P van Lommel MD); Tilburg, Netherlands (R van Wees PhD); Nijmegen, Netherlands (V Meyers PhD); and Capelle a/d Ijssel, Netherlands (I Elfferich PhD)
Correspondence to: Dr Pim van Lommel, Division of Cardiology, Hospital Rijnstate, PO Box 9555, 6800 TA Arnhem, Netherlands (e-mail:pimvanlommel@wanadoo.nl)
Summary
Background Some people report a near-death experience (NDE) after a life-threatening crisis. We aimed to establish the cause of this experience and assess factors that affected its frequency, depth, and content.
Methods In a prospective study, we included 344 consecutive cardiac patients who were successfully resuscitated after cardiac arrest in ten Dutch hospitals. We compared demographic, medical, pharmacological, and psychological data between patients who reported NDE and patients who did not (controls) after resuscitation. In a longitudinal study of life changes after NDE, we compared the groups 2 and 8 years later.
Findings 62 patients (18%) reported NDE, of whom 41 (12%) described a core experience. Occurrence of the experience was not associated with duration of cardiac arrest or unconsciousness, medication, or fear of death before cardiac arrest. Frequency of NDE was affected by how we defined NDE, the prospective nature of the research in older cardiac patients, age, surviving cardiac arrest in first myocardial infarction, more than one cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) during stay in hospital, previous NDE, and memory problems after prolonged CPR. Depth of the experience was affected by sex, surviving CPR outside hospital, and fear before cardiac arrest. Significantly more patients who had an NDE, especially a deep experience, died within 30 days of CPR (p<0·0001). The process of transformation after NDE took several years, and differed from those of patients who survived cardiac arrest without NDE.
Interpretation [b]We do not know why so few cardiac patients report NDE after CPR, although age plays a part. With a purely physiological explanation such as cerebral anoxia for the experience, most patients who have been clinically dead should report one.[/b]
Lancet 2001; 358: 2039-45
and here's the link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11755611 -- please note that the research is 13 years old and is inconclusive -- researchers acknowledge that they "do not not know" why so few report NDE's but they do know that NDE experiencers were more likely to die within 30 days.
I wonder if this was posted by the same person who asked about dark matter being the location of heaven.
Anonymous
09/29/2014 00:03
Subject: What the Lancet says about near death experiences
For those who don't know...The Lancet is a weekly peer-reviewed general medical journal. It is one of the world's oldest and best known general medical journals and has been described as one of the most prestigious medical journals in the world. [ from wikipedia]
This shows to those of us who are believers in God and an afterlife that science is on its way to proving what we knew all along!
Here's a report by doctors who say there is something to near death experiences that they can not explain with science. In this Lancet report is the experience of one coronary care nurse also:
During the pilot phase in one of the hospitals, a coronary-care-unit nurse reported a veridical out-of-body experience of a resuscitated patient:
"During a night shift an ambulance brings in a 44-year-old cyanotic, comatose man into the coronary care unit. He had been found about an hour before in a meadow by passers-by. After admission, he receives artificial respiration without intubation, while heart massage and defibrillation are also applied. When we want to intubate the patient, he turns out to have dentures in his mouth. I remove these upper dentures and put them onto the 'crash car'. Meanwhile, we continue extensive CPR. After about an hour and a half the patient has sufficient heart rhythm and blood pressure, but he is still ventilated and intubated, and he is still comatose. He is transferred to the intensive care unit to continue the necessary artificial respiration. Only after more than a week do I meet again with the patient, who is by now back on the cardiac ward. I distribute his medication. The moment he sees me he says: 'Oh, that nurse knows where my dentures are'. I am very surprised. Then he elucidates: 'Yes, you were there when I was brought into hospital and you took my dentures out of my mouth and put them onto that car, it had all these bottles on it and there was this sliding drawer underneath and there you put my teeth.' I was especially amazed because I remembered this happening while the man was in deep coma and in the process of CPR. When I asked further, it appeared the man had seen himself lying in bed, that he had perceived from above how nurses and doctors had been busy with CPR. He was also able to describe correctly and in detail the small room in which he had been resuscitated as well as the appearance of those present like myself. At the time that he observed the situation he had been very much afraid that we would stop CPR and that he would die. And it is true that we had been very negative about the patient's prognosis due to his very poor medical condition when admitted. The patient tells me that he desperately and unsuccessfully tried to make it clear to us that he was still alive and that we should continue CPR. He is deeply impressed by his experience and says he is no longer afraid of death. 4 weeks later he left hospital as a healthy man."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And here is the Lancet article summary:
Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest: a prospective study in the Netherlands
Pim van Lommel, Ruud van Wees, Vincent Meyers, Ingrid Elfferich
Division of Cardiology, Hospital Rijnstate, Arnhem, Netherlands (P van Lommel MD); Tilburg, Netherlands (R van Wees PhD); Nijmegen, Netherlands (V Meyers PhD); and Capelle a/d Ijssel, Netherlands (I Elfferich PhD)
Correspondence to: Dr Pim van Lommel, Division of Cardiology, Hospital Rijnstate, PO Box 9555, 6800 TA Arnhem, Netherlands (e-mail:pimvanlommel@wanadoo.nl)
Summary
Background Some people report a near-death experience (NDE) after a life-threatening crisis. We aimed to establish the cause of this experience and assess factors that affected its frequency, depth, and content.
Methods In a prospective study, we included 344 consecutive cardiac patients who were successfully resuscitated after cardiac arrest in ten Dutch hospitals. We compared demographic, medical, pharmacological, and psychological data between patients who reported NDE and patients who did not (controls) after resuscitation. In a longitudinal study of life changes after NDE, we compared the groups 2 and 8 years later.
Findings 62 patients (18%) reported NDE, of whom 41 (12%) described a core experience. Occurrence of the experience was not associated with duration of cardiac arrest or unconsciousness, medication, or fear of death before cardiac arrest. Frequency of NDE was affected by how we defined NDE, the prospective nature of the research in older cardiac patients, age, surviving cardiac arrest in first myocardial infarction, more than one cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) during stay in hospital, previous NDE, and memory problems after prolonged CPR. Depth of the experience was affected by sex, surviving CPR outside hospital, and fear before cardiac arrest. Significantly more patients who had an NDE, especially a deep experience, died within 30 days of CPR (p<0·0001). The process of transformation after NDE took several years, and differed from those of patients who survived cardiac arrest without NDE.
Interpretation We do not know why so few cardiac patients report NDE after CPR, although age plays a part. With a purely physiological explanation such as cerebral anoxia for the experience, most patients who have been clinically dead should report one.
Lancet 2001; 358: 2039-45
This shows to those of us who are believers in God and an afterlife that science is on its way to proving what we knew all along!
Here's a report by doctors who say there is something to near death experiences that they can not explain with science. In this Lancet report is the experience of one coronary care nurse also:
During the pilot phase in one of the hospitals, a coronary-care-unit nurse reported a veridical out-of-body experience of a resuscitated patient:
"During a night shift an ambulance brings in a 44-year-old cyanotic, comatose man into the coronary care unit. He had been found about an hour before in a meadow by passers-by. After admission, he receives artificial respiration without intubation, while heart massage and defibrillation are also applied. When we want to intubate the patient, he turns out to have dentures in his mouth. I remove these upper dentures and put them onto the 'crash car'. Meanwhile, we continue extensive CPR. After about an hour and a half the patient has sufficient heart rhythm and blood pressure, but he is still ventilated and intubated, and he is still comatose. He is transferred to the intensive care unit to continue the necessary artificial respiration. Only after more than a week do I meet again with the patient, who is by now back on the cardiac ward. I distribute his medication. The moment he sees me he says: 'Oh, that nurse knows where my dentures are'. I am very surprised. Then he elucidates: 'Yes, you were there when I was brought into hospital and you took my dentures out of my mouth and put them onto that car, it had all these bottles on it and there was this sliding drawer underneath and there you put my teeth.' I was especially amazed because I remembered this happening while the man was in deep coma and in the process of CPR. When I asked further, it appeared the man had seen himself lying in bed, that he had perceived from above how nurses and doctors had been busy with CPR. He was also able to describe correctly and in detail the small room in which he had been resuscitated as well as the appearance of those present like myself. At the time that he observed the situation he had been very much afraid that we would stop CPR and that he would die. And it is true that we had been very negative about the patient's prognosis due to his very poor medical condition when admitted. The patient tells me that he desperately and unsuccessfully tried to make it clear to us that he was still alive and that we should continue CPR. He is deeply impressed by his experience and says he is no longer afraid of death. 4 weeks later he left hospital as a healthy man."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And here is the Lancet article summary:
Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest: a prospective study in the Netherlands
Pim van Lommel, Ruud van Wees, Vincent Meyers, Ingrid Elfferich
Division of Cardiology, Hospital Rijnstate, Arnhem, Netherlands (P van Lommel MD); Tilburg, Netherlands (R van Wees PhD); Nijmegen, Netherlands (V Meyers PhD); and Capelle a/d Ijssel, Netherlands (I Elfferich PhD)
Correspondence to: Dr Pim van Lommel, Division of Cardiology, Hospital Rijnstate, PO Box 9555, 6800 TA Arnhem, Netherlands (e-mail:pimvanlommel@wanadoo.nl)
Summary
Background Some people report a near-death experience (NDE) after a life-threatening crisis. We aimed to establish the cause of this experience and assess factors that affected its frequency, depth, and content.
Methods In a prospective study, we included 344 consecutive cardiac patients who were successfully resuscitated after cardiac arrest in ten Dutch hospitals. We compared demographic, medical, pharmacological, and psychological data between patients who reported NDE and patients who did not (controls) after resuscitation. In a longitudinal study of life changes after NDE, we compared the groups 2 and 8 years later.
Findings 62 patients (18%) reported NDE, of whom 41 (12%) described a core experience. Occurrence of the experience was not associated with duration of cardiac arrest or unconsciousness, medication, or fear of death before cardiac arrest. Frequency of NDE was affected by how we defined NDE, the prospective nature of the research in older cardiac patients, age, surviving cardiac arrest in first myocardial infarction, more than one cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) during stay in hospital, previous NDE, and memory problems after prolonged CPR. Depth of the experience was affected by sex, surviving CPR outside hospital, and fear before cardiac arrest. Significantly more patients who had an NDE, especially a deep experience, died within 30 days of CPR (p<0·0001). The process of transformation after NDE took several years, and differed from those of patients who survived cardiac arrest without NDE.
Interpretation We do not know why so few cardiac patients report NDE after CPR, although age plays a part. With a purely physiological explanation such as cerebral anoxia for the experience, most patients who have been clinically dead should report one.
Lancet 2001; 358: 2039-45