jsteele
09/15/2014 13:46
Subject: Which Islam?
Anonymous wrote:Here's my vote for locking the thread! For locking most or all of the threads, because the topics overlap on the several threads and the vitriol will just migrate to the thread that's still open.
The last three posts in the conversion thread have been very interesting. As long as the discourse stays at that level, I'll leave it open.
Anonymous
09/15/2014 13:45
Subject: Which Islam?
Here's my vote for locking the thread! For locking most or all of the threads, because the topics overlap on the several threads and the vitriol will just migrate to the thread that's still open.
jsteele
09/15/2014 13:42
Subject: Which Islam?
Anonymous wrote:Just to be clear: I'm not a victim. But I'm smart enough to read the writing on the wall, after watching you delete and lock threads you deemed "insulting" to Islam. Not that I think I've insulted Islam, but your standards seem pretty different.
No need for personal insults, either. You can police threads about Islam without insulting people.
Speaking of locking. The latest Muslim poster is doing more damage to Islam on her own than 10 true Islamophobes could do in a day because, honestly, she's an idiot. (She asked, if you don't approve of treating female captives as concubines, and since their spouses are dead, "what would you have done with them?") Plus, she keeps provoking people to recycle old discussions that ended really badly for her. Someone actually asked her if she's a troll trying to make people hate Islam, and I and I think a second person agreed. Nothing new has been added today except more (fascinating, I admit) about Dr. Moore's bio. So, maybe it's time to lock these threads?
I believe that the poster is question also asked that I lock that thread. I suggested that she simply stop posting. I don't want to lock a thread which has useful discussion, but if posters on both sides of the debate want it locked, I guess it makes sense to lock it.
Anonymous
09/15/2014 13:39
Subject: Which Islam?
Just to be clear: I'm not a victim. But I'm smart enough to read the writing on the wall, after watching you delete and lock threads you deemed "insulting" to Islam. Not that I think I've insulted Islam, but your standards seem pretty different.
No need for personal insults, either. You can police threads about Islam without insulting people.
Speaking of locking. The latest Muslim poster is doing more damage to Islam on her own than 10 true Islamophobes could do in a day because, honestly, she's an idiot. (She asked, if you don't approve of treating female captives as concubines, and since their spouses are dead, "what would you have done with them?") Plus, she keeps provoking people to recycle old discussions that ended really badly for her. Someone actually asked her if she's a troll trying to make people hate Islam, and I and I think a second person agreed. Nothing new has been added today except more (fascinating, I admit) about Dr. Moore's bio. So, maybe it's time to lock these threads?
No need for personal insults, either. You can police threads about Islam without insulting people.
Speaking of locking. The latest Muslim poster is doing more damage to Islam on her own than 10 true Islamophobes could do in a day because, honestly, she's an idiot. (She asked, if you don't approve of treating female captives as concubines, and since their spouses are dead, "what would you have done with them?") Plus, she keeps provoking people to recycle old discussions that ended really badly for her. Someone actually asked her if she's a troll trying to make people hate Islam, and I and I think a second person agreed. Nothing new has been added today except more (fascinating, I admit) about Dr. Moore's bio. So, maybe it's time to lock these threads?
jsteele
09/15/2014 13:22
Subject: Which Islam?
Anonymous wrote:PS. I'm betting you'll delete this thread. Or, you'll get in a last word about how I'm an idiot and then you'll lock it.
Always the victim. You seriously have a martyr complex that it tiresome.
jsteele
09/15/2014 13:19
Subject: Which Islam?
Anonymous wrote:jsteele wrote:Anonymous wrote:Who's fault is it that we think they're passing off their personal views as being shared by all Islam?
I don't think anyone can be blamed for what you think other than you. If someone presents their view about Islam as being shared by all Islam, I think an appropriate reply is "that may be your view, but certainly you agree many other professed Muslims believe differently..." But, when someone agrees that there is no "one" Islam, I think it is implied that they do not think their personal beliefs are shared by all Muslims.
Do you think the 2nd Muslim poster, who apparently started many of the Islam threads, agrees that her views may be unrepresentative? Because I haven't heard her speak to this.
Do you think everybody here, plus the new posters, remembers that exchange between you and Muslima?
Maybe you need a sticky at the top: "None of the Muslim posters speaks for all of Islam."
Meanwhile, we've been respectfully (most of us) challenging them all along, like you just suggested above, yet you've accused us of having agendas. It's not our fault non-Muslima PP puts out 50 dubious posts an hour. Did you bother to look at the thread about the standing of the turbans' deen vs. PP's personal take on things?
(Also, did you really just argue that a thread title of "What Does Islam Say About Concubines?" shouldn't be taken at face value? Especially if it didn't come from Muslima?)
I understand that it is important to you to demonstrate that you are the victim of my abuse. However, some posters have openly stated that they have an agenda. In other cases, I indicated that specific posts demonstrated an agenda. I've never made a wholesale accusation of posters having agendas.
I don't know what you mean by taking the thread titled, "What Does Islam Say About Concubines?", at face value. My first question for that poster would be "what do you consider Islam?" Do you mean just the Quran, or the Quran and hadeeth? Or, Muslims scholars and religious leaders? If some self-professed Muslims believe that concubines are acceptable in Islam, what sources do they use for justification and how does the OP view though sources? What has been the historical practice and what is the practice today? I wasn't interested in that topic so I didn't ask those questions. But, that's they way I would have approached it.
Anonymous
09/15/2014 13:09
Subject: Which Islam?
PS. I'm betting you'll delete this thread. Or, you'll get in a last word about how I'm an idiot and then you'll lock it.
Anonymous
09/15/2014 13:08
Subject: Which Islam?
jsteele wrote:Anonymous wrote:Who's fault is it that we think they're passing off their personal views as being shared by all Islam?
I don't think anyone can be blamed for what you think other than you. If someone presents their view about Islam as being shared by all Islam, I think an appropriate reply is "that may be your view, but certainly you agree many other professed Muslims believe differently..." But, when someone agrees that there is no "one" Islam, I think it is implied that they do not think their personal beliefs are shared by all Muslims.
Do you think the 2nd Muslim poster, who apparently started many of the Islam threads, agrees that her views may be unrepresentative? Because I haven't heard her speak to this.
Do you think everybody here, plus the new posters, remembers that exchange between you and Muslima?
Maybe you need a sticky at the top: "None of the Muslim posters speaks for all of Islam."
Meanwhile, we've been respectfully (most of us) challenging them all along, like you just suggested above, yet you've accused us of having agendas. It's not our fault non-Muslima PP puts out 50 dubious posts an hour. Did you bother to look at the thread about the standing of the turbans' deen vs. PP's personal take on things?
(Also, did you really just argue that a thread title of "What Does Islam Say About Concubines?" shouldn't be taken at face value? Especially if it didn't come from Muslima?)
jsteele
09/15/2014 12:41
Subject: Which Islam?
Anonymous wrote:Who's fault is it that we think they're passing off their personal views as being shared by all Islam?
I don't think anyone can be blamed for what you think other than you. If someone presents their view about Islam as being shared by all Islam, I think an appropriate reply is "that may be your view, but certainly you agree many other professed Muslims believe differently..." But, when someone agrees that there is no "one" Islam, I think it is implied that they do not think their personal beliefs are shared by all Muslims.
Anonymous
09/15/2014 12:34
Subject: Which Islam?
Yikes, hit submit too soon.
Anonymous wrote:Ok, thanks.
It's usually not a question of us posing the questions carefully to Muslima.
Instead, Muslima and the others often kick off a subject with "Islam requires asylum to captives." (I'm not going to patronize you by pointing out where I said that right above.) Muslima and the other poster have started multiple threads and given them the titles
- what does Islam say about concubines
- why Muslims don't believe in the Trinity
- compelling conversion is prohibited in Islam
Who's fault is it that we think they're passing off their personal views as being shared by all Islam?
Anonymous
09/15/2014 12:30
Subject: Which Islam?
Ok, thanks.
It's usually not a question of us posing the questions carefully to Muslima.
Instead, Muslima and the others often kick off a subject with "Islam requires asylum to captives." (I'm not going to patronize you by pointing out where I said that right above.) Muslima and the other poster have started multiple threads and given them the titles
- what does Islam say about concubines
-
You need to stop blaming us for what to present their view on so it most hope you understand at least a little but why people are getting frustrated with them, even if you might not agree that spending our weekends responding to their assertions that "Islam says this..." about sperm, concubines or Ebionites might not be a great use of out time. I sort of agree with you
It's usually not a question of us posing the questions carefully to Muslima.
Instead, Muslima and the others often kick off a subject with "Islam requires asylum to captives." (I'm not going to patronize you by pointing out where I said that right above.) Muslima and the other poster have started multiple threads and given them the titles
- what does Islam say about concubines
-
You need to stop blaming us for what to present their view on so it most hope you understand at least a little but why people are getting frustrated with them, even if you might not agree that spending our weekends responding to their assertions that "Islam says this..." about sperm, concubines or Ebionites might not be a great use of out time. I sort of agree with you
jsteele
09/15/2014 12:11
Subject: Which Islam?
Anonymous wrote:
Many of us have told these two posters that if they said, "this is my Islam," that would be fine. However, that's not what they're doing.
I've said more than once that Muslim posters couldn't speak for anyone but themselves and their immediate community.
You might want to review this post:
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/409978.page#5680059
In the quote of my post, I write:
"There is no "one" Islam. Sunni Islam, in particular, is decentralized much like protestantism in Christianity."
...
"Finally, if you find yourself asking questions begin as "why do Muslims" or "why does Islam", you are probably not going to get a satisfactory answer. Muslims are not a monolithic block. If you are talking to Muslima, phrase your question as to "why do you..". She appears quite willing to provide the answers. "
In her part of the post, Muslima begins, "I totally agree with that!" (though this may be limited to just the first sentence).
Anonymous
09/15/2014 11:39
Subject: Which Islam?
(Asks herself: Do I care enough to get beaten up by the moderator? Shrugs.)
Fair enough. Do you also have a problem with DCUM's two Muslim posters posting as though they represent all Islam?
DCUM's two Muslims have repeatedly posted things like, "Islam offers asylum to captives" or "Islam offers rights to women" (in her defense, she later changed this to "justice for women").
These sweeping statements, apparently intended to speak for all of Islam, beg for clarification from the Quran itself. Forget the Hadith and sharia.
Do you think their highly selective personal interpretation, presented without any qualification as a sweeping "Islam this or that," helps readers understand what millions of other Muslims really think?
Many of us have told these two posters that if they said, "this is my Islam," that would be fine. However, that's not what they're doing.
Fair enough. Do you also have a problem with DCUM's two Muslim posters posting as though they represent all Islam?
DCUM's two Muslims have repeatedly posted things like, "Islam offers asylum to captives" or "Islam offers rights to women" (in her defense, she later changed this to "justice for women").
These sweeping statements, apparently intended to speak for all of Islam, beg for clarification from the Quran itself. Forget the Hadith and sharia.
Do you think their highly selective personal interpretation, presented without any qualification as a sweeping "Islam this or that," helps readers understand what millions of other Muslims really think?
Many of us have told these two posters that if they said, "this is my Islam," that would be fine. However, that's not what they're doing.
Anonymous
09/15/2014 10:45
Subject: Re:Which Islam?
Good opinion piece--thanks for posting.
jsteele
09/15/2014 10:13
Subject: Which Islam?
I have been repeating like a broken record -- and in some cases mocked for it -- that there is not a single "Islam" and no Islamic authority to determine what is Islam. I have also discussed this in the Political Forum (and, sadly, even the Website Feedback forum) in relation to IS and Wahhabi Islam. Here is an article that discusses this point much more effectively than I have been able:
http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/which-islam
"Islam is not a sect or a schism and it is also not a religion with a well-defined hierarchy and priesthood. There is no religious capacity performed by the so-called clerics and Muftis in the Muslim world which can’t be performed by lay people. The Qur’an does not speak about a clerical establishment: that came much later and purely for political purposes in order to justify decisions and rule by caliphs (whose connections to Islam and its teachings varied widely from one person to another). Islam may not be as categorically judgmental as the Catholic faith or some Protestant sects."
"What Mohammed Ibn `Abdul-Wahab insisted upon – and what is followers today insist upon – is that men with the sword judge on behalf of God here on earth, and on all matters, small and big. This is where the Saudi Kingdom and ISIS fit. They are outside the boundaries of mainstream Islam in that they refuse to even concede that they speak as representatives of a sect. Wahhabis (of all stripes) protest to even the name of Wahhabis: we are only Muslims, they assert; i.e. they alone are Muslim and everyone else is a kafir who should be fought as ancient pagans at the time of Mohammad."
http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/which-islam
"Islam is not a sect or a schism and it is also not a religion with a well-defined hierarchy and priesthood. There is no religious capacity performed by the so-called clerics and Muftis in the Muslim world which can’t be performed by lay people. The Qur’an does not speak about a clerical establishment: that came much later and purely for political purposes in order to justify decisions and rule by caliphs (whose connections to Islam and its teachings varied widely from one person to another). Islam may not be as categorically judgmental as the Catholic faith or some Protestant sects."
"What Mohammed Ibn `Abdul-Wahab insisted upon – and what is followers today insist upon – is that men with the sword judge on behalf of God here on earth, and on all matters, small and big. This is where the Saudi Kingdom and ISIS fit. They are outside the boundaries of mainstream Islam in that they refuse to even concede that they speak as representatives of a sect. Wahhabis (of all stripes) protest to even the name of Wahhabis: we are only Muslims, they assert; i.e. they alone are Muslim and everyone else is a kafir who should be fought as ancient pagans at the time of Mohammad."