Anonymous wrote:Who won the war? Politically, it is clear Israel lost. Hamas got a lot of sympathy, which IMHO they did not deserve.

Militarily, there was never any doubt who would win. Of course Israel won. If they wanted to, the palestinian casulties could have been 100x greater...

Gaza got sympathy, but not Hamas. You have to separate the two. Most people blame Hamas for starting a war they couldnt win and was bound to get civilians killed. Even those who blame Israel and accuse them of disproportionate response mostly acknowledge that Hamas brought this upon the innocent civilians.

Also, I think as much as Gazans blame Israel, they arent too happy with Hamas right now either. If there was ever a time to help them get new leadership, this would be it.

Who won the war? Politically, it is clear Israel lost. Hamas got a lot of sympathy, which IMHO they did not deserve.

Militarily, there was never any doubt who would win. Of course Israel won. If they wanted to, the palestinian casulties could have been 100x greater...

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:I'm not sure that you are in a position to understand how residents of Gaza feel about anything. You are clearly not in a position to determine where they should live. Attitudes such as yours in which Palestinians are subhuman pawns to be moved around to Israel's advantage are a huge part of the problem.

I dont consider Gazans to be subhuman pawns at all. I think they are being exploited by Hamas who are supposed to be their leaders and should be given a chance to make a new life for themselves outside of Hamas' control. If anything, I want to empower them in a way that Hamas does not do. I did not suggest wholesale moving them, I suggested giving them the offer. It would be their choice.

If you want to marginalize Hamas, lift the blockade, remove the buffer zone, and encourage economic investment. Instead of creating an environment of hopelessness that feeds Hamas, create an environment in which people are improving their lives. People with nothing to lose will likely support Hamas or groups like it. Given them something to lose and they won't be so eager for conflict.

You have to realize that if Israel lifts the blockade and removes the buffer zone, it will only empower Hamas as the people of Gaza will see "shoot missiles at civilians, get what we want". I cant see how it will marginalize them when they come out looking like the heros.

You are correct in the short run. Absolutely. But, if Gazans are busy building businesses, educating their children, and accumulating wealth, they will lose interest in a militant agenda. At that point, either Hamas will change or lose popularity.

I think that is optimistic and you are acting like Gazans have a choice. Either Hamas is committing its attacks from civilian homes and infrastructure with the ok of the civilians, in which case they are not innocent, or Hamas is forcing them, in which case the civilians losing interest will not matter.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:I'm not sure that you are in a position to understand how residents of Gaza feel about anything. You are clearly not in a position to determine where they should live. Attitudes such as yours in which Palestinians are subhuman pawns to be moved around to Israel's advantage are a huge part of the problem.

I dont consider Gazans to be subhuman pawns at all. I think they are being exploited by Hamas who are supposed to be their leaders and should be given a chance to make a new life for themselves outside of Hamas' control. If anything, I want to empower them in a way that Hamas does not do. I did not suggest wholesale moving them, I suggested giving them the offer. It would be their choice.

If you want to marginalize Hamas, lift the blockade, remove the buffer zone, and encourage economic investment. Instead of creating an environment of hopelessness that feeds Hamas, create an environment in which people are improving their lives. People with nothing to lose will likely support Hamas or groups like it. Given them something to lose and they won't be so eager for conflict.

You have to realize that if Israel lifts the blockade and removes the buffer zone, it will only empower Hamas as the people of Gaza will see "shoot missiles at civilians, get what we want". I cant see how it will marginalize them when they come out looking like the heros.

You are correct in the short run. Absolutely. But, if Gazans are busy building businesses, educating their children, and accumulating wealth, they will lose interest in a militant agenda. At that point, either Hamas will change or lose popularity.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:I'm not sure that you are in a position to understand how residents of Gaza feel about anything. You are clearly not in a position to determine where they should live. Attitudes such as yours in which Palestinians are subhuman pawns to be moved around to Israel's advantage are a huge part of the problem.

I dont consider Gazans to be subhuman pawns at all. I think they are being exploited by Hamas who are supposed to be their leaders and should be given a chance to make a new life for themselves outside of Hamas' control. If anything, I want to empower them in a way that Hamas does not do. I did not suggest wholesale moving them, I suggested giving them the offer. It would be their choice.

If you want to marginalize Hamas, lift the blockade, remove the buffer zone, and encourage economic investment. Instead of creating an environment of hopelessness that feeds Hamas, create an environment in which people are improving their lives. People with nothing to lose will likely support Hamas or groups like it. Given them something to lose and they won't be so eager for conflict.

You have to realize that if Israel lifts the blockade and removes the buffer zone, it will only empower Hamas as the people of Gaza will see "shoot missiles at civilians, get what we want". I cant see how it will marginalize them when they come out looking like the heros.

I recommend this article that describes the situation in Gaza. Unless something dramatic happens to improve the situation, the next battle is just around the corner:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/05/world/middleeast/gaza-strip-israel-psychologist-trauma.html

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:I'm not sure that you are in a position to understand how residents of Gaza feel about anything. You are clearly not in a position to determine where they should live. Attitudes such as yours in which Palestinians are subhuman pawns to be moved around to Israel's advantage are a huge part of the problem.

I dont consider Gazans to be subhuman pawns at all. I think they are being exploited by Hamas who are supposed to be their leaders and should be given a chance to make a new life for themselves outside of Hamas' control. If anything, I want to empower them in a way that Hamas does not do. I did not suggest wholesale moving them, I suggested giving them the offer. It would be their choice.

If you want to marginalize Hamas, lift the blockade, remove the buffer zone, and encourage economic investment. Instead of creating an environment of hopelessness that feeds Hamas, create an environment in which people are improving their lives. People with nothing to lose will likely support Hamas or groups like it. Given them something to lose and they won't be so eager for conflict.

If you can suggest a way to do that while ensuring Israel's safety, i.e. wont allow for them to bring in weapons and build more tunnels with the cement and steel like they have been doing, I am all ears. But if Hamas was demilitarize and give up terrorism, then there is no negotiation.

Hamas will re-arm and rebuild the tunnels no matter what. The only difference will be whether the environment created is one in which the weapons and tunnels will be used against Israel. I assume that you realize that for all but one of the last six years, cement was embargoed. Most of the tunnels were built without the help of legally imported cement. So, will the next ones if necessary.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:I'm not sure that you are in a position to understand how residents of Gaza feel about anything. You are clearly not in a position to determine where they should live. Attitudes such as yours in which Palestinians are subhuman pawns to be moved around to Israel's advantage are a huge part of the problem.

I dont consider Gazans to be subhuman pawns at all. I think they are being exploited by Hamas who are supposed to be their leaders and should be given a chance to make a new life for themselves outside of Hamas' control. If anything, I want to empower them in a way that Hamas does not do. I did not suggest wholesale moving them, I suggested giving them the offer. It would be their choice.

If you want to marginalize Hamas, lift the blockade, remove the buffer zone, and encourage economic investment. Instead of creating an environment of hopelessness that feeds Hamas, create an environment in which people are improving their lives. People with nothing to lose will likely support Hamas or groups like it. Given them something to lose and they won't be so eager for conflict.

If you can suggest a way to do that while ensuring Israel's safety, i.e. wont allow for them to bring in weapons and build more tunnels with the cement and steel like they have been doing, I am all ears. But if Hamas was demilitarize and give up terrorism, then there is no negotiation.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:I'm not sure that you are in a position to understand how residents of Gaza feel about anything. You are clearly not in a position to determine where they should live. Attitudes such as yours in which Palestinians are subhuman pawns to be moved around to Israel's advantage are a huge part of the problem.

I dont consider Gazans to be subhuman pawns at all. I think they are being exploited by Hamas who are supposed to be their leaders and should be given a chance to make a new life for themselves outside of Hamas' control. If anything, I want to empower them in a way that Hamas does not do. I did not suggest wholesale moving them, I suggested giving them the offer. It would be their choice.

If you want to marginalize Hamas, lift the blockade, remove the buffer zone, and encourage economic investment. Instead of creating an environment of hopelessness that feeds Hamas, create an environment in which people are improving their lives. People with nothing to lose will likely support Hamas or groups like it. Given them something to lose and they won't be so eager for conflict.

It is obvious that Hamas won. It was on it last legs in Gaza before the Israeli invasion. Hamas's leadership all survived, Gaza knows who will fights for it, there is a new generation in Gaza who hate Israel(that's what happens when you kill people), the westbank leadership looks like fools for trying dealing with the Israeli/US in a peaceful way. Bibi will be gone in a year-too many failures- intell on the tunnels, Hamas's abilities, engaging in a ground assualt(the only way Hamas could kill IDF), world's view of Israel(look for boycotts), world's view on Bibi, giving the US the finger and US views on Israel has changed. War always has unintentional consequences. Look for the next government in Israel to be more right wing and double down on policies that weaken Israel's long term sustainability. The two state solution is no longer an option.

From a human toll, obviously the Gazans took the biggest hit.

It is not clear at this point how damaged Hamas is v-a-v the Palestinian public. But at this point, they aren't going away even if they are voted out.

Honestly, the biggest loser is going to be Israel. Their military doctrine is to inflict overwhelming damage in order to create a deterrent. They bombed so much that the US needed to rearm them, and they called up the reservists. Yet the Palestinians are still undeterred. This was the chief criticism of the last Lebanon war. Increasingly, the opponent is able to absorb the attack. It's the same problem we have in Afghanistan and Iraq.

jsteele wrote:I'm not sure that you are in a position to understand how residents of Gaza feel about anything. You are clearly not in a position to determine where they should live. Attitudes such as yours in which Palestinians are subhuman pawns to be moved around to Israel's advantage are a huge part of the problem.

I dont consider Gazans to be subhuman pawns at all. I think they are being exploited by Hamas who are supposed to be their leaders and should be given a chance to make a new life for themselves outside of Hamas' control. If anything, I want to empower them in a way that Hamas does not do. I did not suggest wholesale moving them, I suggested giving them the offer. It would be their choice.

I'm not sure that you are in a position to understand how residents of Gaza feel about anything. You are clearly not in a position to determine where they should live. Attitudes such as yours in which Palestinians are subhuman pawns to be moved around to Israel's advantage are a huge part of the problem.

I thought this was a great article. Where Hamas goes from here remains to be seen. http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-might-have-won-hamas-certainly-lost/#ixzz39cKqTFl8

Here are my thoughts

I also think most Gazans are angry with Hamas for leading them into a war they knew they couldnt win and hiding out in Qatar (and in the bunkers) while the civilians suffered. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4555631,00.html

I also think peace with Hamas is unachievable and Fatah should take over.

I also think a Palestinian state with Gaza and the west Bank is not possible as it is not contiguous and protecting Israel's safety while allowing passage between the two is incredibly difficult. I think Gazans who are willing to move should be offered space in the West Bank and the 2- state solution should proceed without consideration of Gaza. Those who are left there will have to govern themselves. I know it sounds horrible for me to suggest uprooting all of Gaza, but its the only realistic and viable option. The ones that choose Fatah are choosing to recognize Israel and move towards peace. The ones who want to stay with Hamas are choosing terrorism.