jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:The alleged Rosh Hashana attack was discussed in another thread, though it was described as involving 1,000 Hamas fighters. I expressed skepticism about the story and was roundly castigated for my efforts. Though the story was revised by subsequent posters to involve only 200 fighters, nobody bothered to note that my skepticism had been warranted. I remain skeptical of this story. I found that the source was a single anonymous quote. That quote was republished in a great many articles which were themselves subsequently referenced. So, while you can now probably find hundreds of blogs and other websites mentioning this attack, I have not found a second primary source. If anyone can find another primary source, please let me know.

My assumption is that the tunnels were to be used for capturing Israeli soldiers who could be traded for Palestinian prisoners. An attack resulting in mass civilian casualties, while sounding sensational, seems doubtful to me.

Except for our retired military officer who saw these tunnels, where they were located, and what was in them, and agreed with the Israeli government. You, from your armchair, are simply assuming

He saw one tunnel. I've never denied that there were tunnels. The issue is the purpose of the tunnels. I assume that you are also in an armchair. Yet, you claim al sorts of knowledge.

Until that article in the WSJ was posted, you accused all sources of being the same. I have family there, so unless you do as well, then I suggest you consider their word. Another pP spoke of her family members being evacuated from an Israeli kibbutz due to a tunnel found under the dining room table. Crickets from you. I suppose those Palestinians digging that tunnel list their way...

Do you have a source for the Rosh Hashana attack beyond the single anonymous source? Sorry, I am not trusting the word of anonymous posters. I could logout and post that I found a tunnel running from the Israeli embassy to my bathroom. That wouldn't make it true.

Be careful where you sit.

If they had this incredible plan, it stands to reason that they would have done it at the outset of the conflict. What, did they think the tunnels would remain hidden and intact through a war?

Also, were they supposed to jog several miles back to their tunnels with sedated prisoners???

Lastly, the stated purpose of the source is "promoting and improving the image of the State of Israel". So it's an advocacy group.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:The alleged Rosh Hashana attack was discussed in another thread, though it was described as involving 1,000 Hamas fighters. I expressed skepticism about the story and was roundly castigated for my efforts. Though the story was revised by subsequent posters to involve only 200 fighters, nobody bothered to note that my skepticism had been warranted. I remain skeptical of this story. I found that the source was a single anonymous quote. That quote was republished in a great many articles which were themselves subsequently referenced. So, while you can now probably find hundreds of blogs and other websites mentioning this attack, I have not found a second primary source. If anyone can find another primary source, please let me know.

My assumption is that the tunnels were to be used for capturing Israeli soldiers who could be traded for Palestinian prisoners. An attack resulting in mass civilian casualties, while sounding sensational, seems doubtful to me.

Except for our retired military officer who saw these tunnels, where they were located, and what was in them, and agreed with the Israeli government. You, from your armchair, are simply assuming

He saw one tunnel. I've never denied that there were tunnels. The issue is the purpose of the tunnels. I assume that you are also in an armchair. Yet, you claim al sorts of knowledge.

Until that article in the WSJ was posted, you accused all sources of being the same. I have family there, so unless you do as well, then I suggest you consider their word. Another pP spoke of her family members being evacuated from an Israeli kibbutz due to a tunnel found under the dining room table. Crickets from you. I suppose those Palestinians digging that tunnel list their way...

Do you have a source for the Rosh Hashana attack beyond the single anonymous source? Sorry, I am not trusting the word of anonymous posters. I could logout and post that I found a tunnel running from the Israeli embassy to my bathroom. That wouldn't make it true.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is Israel allowed to obtain (extremely powerful) weapons, but Palestinians are not? Why is Israel allowed to "defend" itself for survival, but Palestinians are not?

I don't support any violence or killings, especially civilians, but the open legitimizing of the double standard is bogus.

Crazy Islamic terrorists state vs Jewish democracy?

Your statement is about as accurate, as saying "Crazy Jewish terrorists vs. Palestinian democracy?"

Anonymous wrote:Why is Israel allowed to obtain (extremely powerful) weapons, but Palestinians are not? Why is Israel allowed to "defend" itself for survival, but Palestinians are not?

I don't support any violence or killings, especially civilians, but the open legitimizing of the double standard is bogus.

Crazy Islamic terrorists state vs Jewish democracy?

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:The alleged Rosh Hashana attack was discussed in another thread, though it was described as involving 1,000 Hamas fighters. I expressed skepticism about the story and was roundly castigated for my efforts. Though the story was revised by subsequent posters to involve only 200 fighters, nobody bothered to note that my skepticism had been warranted. I remain skeptical of this story. I found that the source was a single anonymous quote. That quote was republished in a great many articles which were themselves subsequently referenced. So, while you can now probably find hundreds of blogs and other websites mentioning this attack, I have not found a second primary source. If anyone can find another primary source, please let me know.

My assumption is that the tunnels were to be used for capturing Israeli soldiers who could be traded for Palestinian prisoners. An attack resulting in mass civilian casualties, while sounding sensational, seems doubtful to me.

Except for our retired military officer who saw these tunnels, where they were located, and what was in them, and agreed with the Israeli government. You, from your armchair, are simply assuming

He saw one tunnel. I've never denied that there were tunnels. The issue is the purpose of the tunnels. I assume that you are also in an armchair. Yet, you claim al sorts of knowledge.

Until that article in the WSJ was posted, you accused all sources of being the same. I have family there, so unless you do as well, then I suggest you consider their word. Another pP spoke of her family members being evacuated from an Israeli kibbutz due to a tunnel found under the dining room table. Crickets from you. I suppose those Palestinians digging that tunnel list their way...

Anonymous wrote:Why is Israel allowed to obtain (extremely powerful) weapons, but Palestinians are not? Why is Israel allowed to "defend" itself for survival, but Palestinians are not?

I don't support any violence or killings, especially civilians, but the open legitimizing of the double standard is bogus.

I was curious about the same. This might shed some historical light.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip

Why is Israel allowed to obtain (extremely powerful) weapons, but Palestinians are not? Why is Israel allowed to "defend" itself for survival, but Palestinians are not?

I don't support any violence or killings, especially civilians, but the open legitimizing of the double standard is bogus.

Anonymous wrote:Jeff essentially feels that the Israeli government is not being truthful. Nothing to see here!

I have not said that the Israeli government is not being truthful. That is an out right lie and I do accuse you of not being truthful. I have said that I have not seen any official Israeli source comment on that story. Without such a comment, how could one even discuss the government's veracity?

What these reports always fail to mention is that the tunnels are a response to Israel’s suffocating siege of Gaza, noted by groups such as Christian Aid.

Last week, UNRWA, the UN agency responsible for assisting Palestinian refugees, announced that it had run out of food to distribute. With 80 per cent of the population dependent upon food aid, the situation is critical but the crossings into Gaza – the only points of entry for people and goods - remain tightly closed.

Increasingly goods are smuggled through tunnels from Egypt into Gaza, but the high cost of items brought in this way, are out of reach for many ordinary Gazans.

"There is a huge concern for November food supplies. UNRWA only works with registered refugees, but what about non-refugees? Tunnels are the only way of getting food and other goods, but this is only for people with money", says a Christian Aid partner in Khan Younis.

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/8011

Does Hamas use the tunnels to smuggle weapons? Of course they do. You think Isreal will just allow them to go on an open market and buy weapons like they do?

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:The alleged Rosh Hashana attack was discussed in another thread, though it was described as involving 1,000 Hamas fighters. I expressed skepticism about the story and was roundly castigated for my efforts. Though the story was revised by subsequent posters to involve only 200 fighters, nobody bothered to note that my skepticism had been warranted. I remain skeptical of this story. I found that the source was a single anonymous quote. That quote was republished in a great many articles which were themselves subsequently referenced. So, while you can now probably find hundreds of blogs and other websites mentioning this attack, I have not found a second primary source. If anyone can find another primary source, please let me know.

My assumption is that the tunnels were to be used for capturing Israeli soldiers who could be traded for Palestinian prisoners. An attack resulting in mass civilian casualties, while sounding sensational, seems doubtful to me.

Except for our retired military officer who saw these tunnels, where they were located, and what was in them, and agreed with the Israeli government. You, from your armchair, are simply assuming

He saw one tunnel. I've never denied that there were tunnels. The issue is the purpose of the tunnels. I assume that you are also in an armchair. Yet, you claim al sorts of knowledge.

jsteele wrote:The alleged Rosh Hashana attack was discussed in another thread, though it was described as involving 1,000 Hamas fighters. I expressed skepticism about the story and was roundly castigated for my efforts. Though the story was revised by subsequent posters to involve only 200 fighters, nobody bothered to note that my skepticism had been warranted. I remain skeptical of this story. I found that the source was a single anonymous quote. That quote was republished in a great many articles which were themselves subsequently referenced. So, while you can now probably find hundreds of blogs and other websites mentioning this attack, I have not found a second primary source. If anyone can find another primary source, please let me know.

My assumption is that the tunnels were to be used for capturing Israeli soldiers who could be traded for Palestinian prisoners. An attack resulting in mass civilian casualties, while sounding sensational, seems doubtful to me.

Except for our retired military officer who saw these tunnels, where they were located, and what was in them, and agreed with the Israeli government. You, from your armchair, are simply assuming

Jeff essentially feels that the Israeli government is not being truthful. Nothing to see here!

The alleged Rosh Hashana attack was discussed in another thread, though it was described as involving 1,000 Hamas fighters. I expressed skepticism about the story and was roundly castigated for my efforts. Though the story was revised by subsequent posters to involve only 200 fighters, nobody bothered to note that my skepticism had been warranted. I remain skeptical of this story. I found that the source was a single anonymous quote. That quote was republished in a great many articles which were themselves subsequently referenced. So, while you can now probably find hundreds of blogs and other websites mentioning this attack, I have not found a second primary source. If anyone can find another primary source, please let me know.

My assumption is that the tunnels were to be used for capturing Israeli soldiers who could be traded for Palestinian prisoners. An attack resulting in mass civilian casualties, while sounding sensational, seems doubtful to me.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/07/hamass-big-plan-disrupted.php

Leaks have begun to trickle out on what Israeli interogators are learning from captured Hamas fighters. One plot in particular is getting overwhelming attention.

Hamas was apparently a few months away from conducting a mass attack on Israeli civilians during the upcoming Jewish holiday of Rosh Hashana, on September 24. The raid would have been like something out of a movie: hundreds of heavily-armed Hamas fighters would have emerged from over a dozen underground tunnels in the dead of night, jogged 10 minutes to their targets, and then infiltrated a set of lightly-populated and lightly-guarded Israeli communities. Casualties could have reached the thousands, and some of the victims would have been taken back alive as hostages.

The offensive attack tunnels seem to quite literally have been built for this kind of purpose. The IDF recently published a map of how they were dug to spill out on both sides of nearby communities (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtYjL4mCAAAI6c6.png). Israeli soldiers have been reporting that just inside some of the tunnels were storage units filled with tranquilizers, handcuffs, ropes, and so on.

The reports on this are mostly in Hebrew right now (the original one is here if you want it: http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/600/825.html?hp=1&cat=875&loc=1). There are bits and pieces are getting translated on blogs and in think tank bulletins. The Gatestone Institute’s Lawrence Franklin has the best English-language I’ve seen so far, and I’ve pasted it below.

If the reports are confirmed, there are some immediate adjustments that analysts, journalists, and diplomats will all but certainly make:

(1) A ceasefire without at least the destruction of Hamas’s tunnel network would likely becomes a non-starter. It would be militarily untenable – and probably politically impossible – for Israeli leaders to accept anything less.

(2) The inevitable Israeli investigation into pre-conflict failures – and the Israelis always hold these, no matter how well things go – will have to take into account both how so many tunnels got built and why Israeli intelligence failed to crack the tunnel plot earlier. There’s a lot of focus right now on the former, but a lot of the digging and earth moving happened underground. It’s the latter debate, about sigint and humint, that has the potential to cost people careers.

(3) Confirmation of the plot would raise the stakes in the growing controversy over how human rights groups and diplomatic bodies pressured the Israelis into liberalizing restrictions on cement imports. Kilometers and kilometers of reinforced tunnels were being built deep into Israeli territory while Gaza-based offiicals railed against cement shortages. Some critics have already begun to name names, and the debate is already become very granular: TIP held a conference call yesterday in which one expert described how Hamas filled emptied UNRWA relief bags with dirt and then drove them away in UN-painted trucks, so that drones overhead saw what looked like a UN-sanctioned aid convoy.

(4) The public debate over the degree to which Operation Protective Edge was a “war of choice” for the Israelis would become constrained. A full-blown war would be seen as in some sense inevitable, with the only difference being whether it came before or after the Jewish High Holidays this fall.