Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of design build firms with high quality experienced architects. Not all D/Bs are build to model. We're using a small architect/D/B that only runs 2-3 jobs at a time and has done some sort of renovation/addition on dozens of homes in our vicinity.

Having him plugged into everything, along with knowing his crew is 100% dedicated to our job (every day, rain or shine) is super comforting. I'd guess I'm spending ~15% more than I would have going with a GC and trying to run in myself, but at the same time working with a vertically integrated firm has ensured that there are no cost overruns or delays, and we know that the quality, attention to detail, and consistency will be there when we're done.

If you've got time and enough experience (ie, knowing when corners are being cut or a GC is f'ing up) as well as the willingness to play the heavy, you can probably save $ with an architect + unaffiliated GC. But if you're in the $300k range already, you might have more peace of mind with a top notch D/B.

It's not the experience of the architect with design build that is the issue, it's the fact that if the architect works for the contractor you don't have third party quality control.

We used an architect, and he handled most of the dealings with the contractor. That turned out to save our sanity, since there were so many issues that came up. I was very happy we went that route.

Our architect was 9% but he said in DC he charges more...not sure if it is the rich folk premium or there is something special about dc...anyway, you say you want it to not look like an addition but have it be natural. You want an architect. Design build is great if you don't particularly care about look but only focus on function.

Anonymous wrote:14%? The firm we're using is 8%. They do most of the work in-house (they have contractors and tradesmen on-staff). My plan is we'll hire a home inspector-type to check in every few weeks on the work just to make sure it's right.

Which firm are you using? Can everyone reply with the firms and percentages?

I am a GC from out of the area. I also work in an expensive area. While the percentage can be misleading I think out of the gate it is high. The one variable is how much will the architect be detailing. For 12-14% I would expect to see significant interior elevations, especially for the master bath and the kitchen. I do not know if you were planning on going custom kitchen or not. At 300k budget I suspect not. If no custom kitchen, I would not step up to 12-14%. But if all custom and he/she will be detailing kitchen, tile layout in master bath, shower, etc. I real set of high end plans than I'd be more likely to say ok. My gut tells me you should be able to buy it for about 8% which is about 25k - that's a nice budget and a nice job for an architect.

With respect to the Architect vs Design Build. I do both. I will admit that I often get frustrated by the public's notion that you need someone to protect you from builder. Historically, there was a concept of a master builder, who did both. It was his job. How come no one ever asks who is protecting you from the architect ? I also have a hard time with architects who espouse the bid process, esp. those that tout it as a way of saving their clients money (and a way for them to claim they paid for themselves.) I believe the bid process creates an adversarial relationship. And often rewards the disingenuous.

I also know for your type additions I have had architects tell me they are problematic jobs for them. Too much detail (kitchen and bath details) without enough tonnage (spend) to make their percentages work. It is one reason you see design build firms in the kitchen and bath space. My ideal job for design build is what I call a kitchen bumpout - new kitchen, mudroom, breakfast room, patio, laundry, etc. Often they are in the 400-600k range and are highly detailed jobs. An architect has a hard time competing because they will often out source the kitchen layout to a kitchen designer - problem is it is a kitchen centric addition. So out of the gate their process is flawed. And as I can source hand made cabinets from a couple of "white label" cabinet guys I can make money on the cabinets and the construction so I don't have to kill you on the drawings - and truth be told most design build firms have a good architects they use - most often women who spent considerable time at prestigious firms and never made partner because of the mommy track. But rhere is a mistrust of builders - sometimes I can't help but wonder if that is not because of the bid process where we are forced to compete for work on price to pay for the real fox in the hen house.

14%? The firm we're using is 8%. They do most of the work in-house (they have contractors and tradesmen on-staff). My plan is we'll hire a home inspector-type to check in every few weeks on the work just to make sure it's right.

Why should an architect cost more based on finishing like marble vs vinyl tile? I can understand size of the house.

There are plenty of design build firms with high quality experienced architects. Not all D/Bs are build to model. We're using a small architect/D/B that only runs 2-3 jobs at a time and has done some sort of renovation/addition on dozens of homes in our vicinity.

Having him plugged into everything, along with knowing his crew is 100% dedicated to our job (every day, rain or shine) is super comforting. I'd guess I'm spending ~15% more than I would have going with a GC and trying to run in myself, but at the same time working with a vertically integrated firm has ensured that there are no cost overruns or delays, and we know that the quality, attention to detail, and consistency will be there when we're done.

If you've got time and enough experience (ie, knowing when corners are being cut or a GC is f'ing up) as well as the willingness to play the heavy, you can probably save $ with an architect + unaffiliated GC. But if you're in the $300k range already, you might have more peace of mind with a top notch D/B.

We hired an architect instead of design build. We wanted someone who would advocate for us during the construction process.

Be careful that you are picking an architect within your budget. We fell in love with an architect who designed Porsches and were shocked when we had a hard time building a Camry. We ended up ditching them and going to design build.

We did design build. My biggest regret is that we did not have an architect. You need an architect for quality control if nothing else. WIthout one YOU will have to take that role to some extent and if you don't have any building experience this will be difficult and stressful.

The pp who said it was the fox guarding the hen house is spot on.

We talked to several. Most are 12% to 15%. Some are hourly but suggest to expect about 12 to 14% anyway . If you need some names I can throw a few out. Depends where you are / what you want as well.

We did not go design build because that frankly felt like the fox guarding the hen house, although I'm not 100% sure we ended up with a savings in the long run. Like you, our choice was 5 to 7% with design build and more like 15% with an architect. In the end it might have been a wash but I liked having an advocate for us that could call out a contractor on bullshit, hold back payment, etc.

Anonymous wrote:Did you ask the architect who is charging 14% what services their price included? At 14%, it should include some construction management in addition to the design and working drawings and possibly some interior architecture.

What do you consider a fair price to pay an architect (whether it be an architect or the architectural services with a design build company) for a +/- $120,000 addition/ remodel?

OP here: the 14 percent does not include project management; if the contractor has a question, he calls the architect and not us. The architect also checks in to make sure everything is going to plan. However, the GC really manages the job. This is at least how the architect explained it to us.

I don't know how much I should be paying an architect (I have never used one), but I think this is going to be about a 300k renovation, so 14 percent is over 40k, which is a huge add on to an already expensive renovation. I've looked on dcurbanmom and some say they hired an architect for a flat fee or for a smaller percentage, but no one says who that architect was.

Did you ask the architect who is charging 14% what services their price included? At 14%, it should include some construction management in addition to the design and working drawings and possibly some interior architecture.

What do you consider a fair price to pay an architect (whether it be an architect or the architectural services with a design build company) for a +/- $120,000 addition/ remodel?

We purchased a home in DC and would like to add on a master bedroom and bath, renovate the kitchen, and renovate a bathroom. We would like the addition to look natural as it relates to the rest of the house, but it will not be a crazy architectural design...rather, the focus will be more on function.

We have met with one design build firm and one architect (we have plans to meet with more). The one architect told us it would be 14% of construction costs. I don't doubt it would possibly be worth that cost, but I think that is a higher cost than we would like to spend. One of the benefits to design build to me is that they seem to do more management of the project than an architect, which would result in less stress for me and my husband.

I think I have two questions, but any additional thoughts are appreciated:

1) What are your personal experiences with design build?
2) How much did your architect charge, who was the architect, and did you like him/her?