Take what I say with a grain of salt. I would be very cautious in how you present your separation agreement. Even the most level headed spouses can get vindictive and angry during a separation and divorce. Usually, if they are angry they will try to hurt you by controlling access to the kids or money. In your case, you spouse will quickly realize that your greatest fear is him spending time alone with the kids overnight.

When I went through this, my therapist was a child advocate in many, many court trials for the county. She said that unless your spouse has a conviction for child abuse related problems, the court will grant him 50/50 custody in most cases. She did testify at trials where she advocated that in the child's best interest one or the other parent should have limited access. It sounds like your situation would be very tough to prove. Your spouse is not the same type of parent that you are (and you consider him abusive), but if CPS doesn't agree -- you may have a hard time getting the courts to limit your DH's access.

I would present the agreement in such a way that you offer him the choice of as much access as he would like during the day. I'd present the choice for you to keep them overnight as a matter of stability and continuity for the kids (don't tell DH you don't trust him). Most guys demand 50/50 access to begin with and then quickly drop off their commitment to see the kids as they realize how much work it is to juggle their schedules.

If you really want control over your kids and how they spend their time, don't get a divorce. I know that sounds sanctimonious -- but it is the truth. Divorce gives you a lot less control of decisions regarding your kids than you had when you were married. While it sounds crazy, if you are really concerned about your kids -- you may want to stay married, as sucky as that would be for you.

Anonymous wrote:

OP - If your son has been seeing a therapist for quite a while - as opposed to suddenly start going to one to bolster your separation effort - why couldn't you get a letter from the therapist detailing why it is not in the children's best interest to be in an overnight situation with dad at this time? Likewise, can there be any sharing of the lack of effectiveness of whatever therapy your husband has been in over the past time as not reducing incidents. The next time if it happen, you do need to call police right away to get services involved.
You have demonstrated that you were willing to try to do whatever to help your husband, but right now it is the kids' safety that is paramount. Unfortunately, CPS in so many places is so lacking.

All good ideas, thanks. I will contact CPS or file a motion of protection next time it happens. Really hoping to do the separation and divorce on the cheaper side of things (mediation, using the separation agreement, etc), but if I have to go through litigation I will. Just not sure how I would pay for it.

I would be careful about calling police. Not that it is wrong but police coming to the house at a time when emotions are running high and accusations of child abuse are being made can actually be very traumatizing for young children. It can lead to kids having fears, panic attacks etc that if mommy daddy or the child themselves does anything wrong the police might come and take them away. They have a hard time differentiating between degrees of 'bad behavior'. As in the police took daddy away because he hit me, if I hit younger brother they might come and take me away. Or that because they did something wrong and that is why mommy/daddy were mad at them that they are responsible for what happens.

Different than filing a report after the fact.

Again, not saying it is wrong and in some situations might be the right thing but not necessarily in the best interest of the kids to put them through that solely in the hopes it will bolster your case in court.

OP - If your son has been seeing a therapist for quite a while - as opposed to suddenly start going to one to bolster your separation effort - why couldn't you get a letter from the therapist detailing why it is not in the children's best interest to be in an overnight situation with dad at this time? Likewise, can there be any sharing of the lack of effectiveness of whatever therapy your husband has been in over the past time as not reducing incidents. The next time if it happen, you do need to call police right away to get services involved.
You have demonstrated that you were willing to try to do whatever to help your husband, but right now it is the kids' safety that is paramount. Unfortunately, CPS in so many places is so lacking.

Anonymous wrote:I am having the same experience with my wife, and DD seems to have some sort of "Stockholm Syndrome" where she is protective of her mother despite the abuse.

OP here- I'm sorry you are going through this too. It's awful and can make one feel so helpless.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even without a CPS investigation, the judge should be able to consider the incidents if there is some record of it.

Call the police next time it happens.

I think the bigger issue is that CPS has investigated and deemed the allegations to be unsubstantiated (by their definition). Not sure a judge will overrule CPS as often CPS is considered a neutral party versus what a father or mother says the other parent does in a custody battle (as often the truth isn't clear).

CPS did not even open an investigation. They heard all the things he's done (I keep a log) and said it didn't warrant an investigation.

Anonymous wrote:Even without a CPS investigation, the judge should be able to consider the incidents if there is some record of it.

Call the police next time it happens.

I think the bigger issue is that CPS has investigated and deemed the allegations to be unsubstantiated (by their definition). Not sure a judge will overrule CPS as often CPS is considered a neutral party versus what a father or mother says the other parent does in a custody battle (as often the truth isn't clear).

Even without a CPS investigation, the judge should be able to consider the incidents if there is some record of it.

Call the police next time it happens.

I am having the same experience with my wife, and DD seems to have some sort of "Stockholm Syndrome" where she is protective of her mother despite the abuse.

Anonymous wrote:Is he currently ever alone with them?

He is alone with them daily, but mostly just an hour or two here and there. I never leave them for an entire day, for example or overnight.

Thanks for the supportive comments. It's a really crappy situation.

CPS (Arlington) won't take the case because they said that the only situation where my kid was in imminent danger was when my husband put his hands around son's neck. Because it was over a year ago they told my son's therapist (she's the one who called CPS) the other things did not warrant an investigation. It's not spanking at all. It's a matter of my husband being about to blow up and then hitting my son. As far as my definition of abuse- yeah, I think it's abusive to hit your kid, but if CPS doesn't do something then I have little support to go on. It seems terrible though that I need to wait until something worse happens to my son.

My son is already in talk/play therapy and it's something they've talked about. It's so confusing for a kid to love their parent, but also have them hit them.

Excellent point- I don't know that he'll want overnights with the kids.

That's very scary, OP. I'm sorry you guys are going through this. Does your lawyer have prior experience with domestic violence/child abuse? I personally would want my lawyer to have an idea how those played out in court.

If you are in Montgomery County, the Family Justice Center may have additional resources (I'm not saying drop your lawyer, just trying to provide other information). And I know MoCo has special lawyers/advocates appointed for the kids in custody disputes/divorce. Called CINA. And it provides supervised visitation options.

I'd also talk to a child therapist who has experience in these issues and see how you may be able to empower your kids when facing these tough situations.

Do you know for a fact your husband would even want overnights with the kids? Maybe he'd welcome the break.

I wish you the best, OP. Thanks for standing up for your kids.

Is he currently ever alone with them?

Why won't CPS take the case? Is this a disagreement on spanking, i.e. swat on the backside? Or does he lose his temper and just start hitting them in anger? Usually hitting in anger does leave marks.

CPS doesn't only investigate or step in if it leaves marks or is life threatening so just trying to understand what your definition of abuse is?

If CPS has investigated and is saying they don't consider it abuse, you may have a hard time if he wants overnights. Without police reports or CPS reports, it is hard to deny parental rights (to spend the night with their child).

Hopefully he won't want overnights.

My husband hits our older child (he's 7)- not daily (maybe 3 or so times a month- it's awful), he doesn't leave a mark, and it's not life threatening; as a result of the last two items, Child Protective Services won't take our case. He also yells and screams a lot and can drive very erratically (and fast) if he's angry. After years of trying different things (counseling- individual and marriage; medication; parenting classes; less stressful job for him, etc) to help my husband, I'm in the process of working w/ a lawyer to develop a separation agreement; it should not be a surprise to my husband.

My major concern is that I don't want my husband to have the kids (age 7 and 3) overnight. That's when he really seems to lose his temper and lash out at my older child (and this of course scares both kids). I don't want my kids to have to fend for themselves. Currently the draft separation agreement (keep in mind he has to agree with it) gives him flexible access to the kids during the week, but they return home to me before bedtime; and all day every other Saturday (again, home before bedtime). Where it gets tricky is how to deal with summer vacations and holidays- right now the draft allows him to have the kids over night.

So my question is- does anyone have any ideas about how to deal with this in a way that won't make my husband reject the entire separation agreement? Has anyone else been in a similar situation? If so, do you have any advice you could share about what worked and what did not work? The only thing I can think of is that if he has the kids overnight I'd like one of his family members there- his parents or sisters, etc.

Thanks- I'm feeling really nervous about moving forward with this, but I have to do something.