Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You should think about divorce. It could just be a power play on her part. These things do not get better with time.

And, of course, there is a downside to talking it out with Internet strangers. It's not a power play. I'm not getting a divorce. I have a great marriage with a mediocre sex life. I'm trying to make our sex life better.

You beat me to it, OP. I can't believe how quickly some people throw out divorce as the only option.

To that PP- I feel sorry for whatever experiences have given you such a cynical view of life.

Anonymous wrote:You should think about divorce. It could just be a power play on her part. These things do not get better with time.

And, of course, there is a downside to talking it out with Internet strangers. It's not a power play. I'm not getting a divorce. I have a great marriage with a mediocre sex life. I'm trying to make our sex life better.

You should think about divorce. It could just be a power play on her part. These things do not get better with time.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, it seems like you need to have a talk with YOUR wife and see how she feels about it all, rather than using other people's experiences to help you figure out what your wife is thinking/wants.

This. The concept of "no means no" is very simple but in reality, there are soft nos and hard nos. Talk to your partner and if they're not being clear, you need to figure it out before you insert part of your body into theirs.

Hard nos are easy. Just back off and be done with it.

Soft nos are the conundrum. Some women will say anything less than enthusiastic consent should be taken as a "no." Others will say that they like to be desired and a guy persisting through soft nos is a way the guy shows that desire. "Playing hard to get" is a thing. My wife gives me mixed messages - on the one hand, she says "it's nice to be pursued." On the other hand, when I pursue, she'll sometimes complain about "being pressured for sex" makes her want it less.

Anonymous wrote:OP, did you post the other day about initiation? Honestly, it seems like you need to have a talk with YOUR wife and see how she feels about it all, rather than using other people's experiences to help you figure out what your wife is thinking/wants.

I have. She's unclear on what she wants. Whether it's because she doesn't know or doesn't want to say is a tougher question. And the worse part is that talking about our sexual dynamics makes her more self-conscious about sex and therefore less into it. So, in my experience, I need to have these sex talks sparingly. Talking it out with Internet strangers helps me identify the more productive areas of discussion or experimentation.

The underlying problem is that she's not as attracted to me as she would like to be or as I would like her to be. There is a variety of reasons for that lack of attraction. We had a long stretch of pregnancy, tiny kids that kills a lot of sexual attraction under the best of circumstances. Then, as it turned out, her hormonal IUD was killing her sex drive. We got that out and things got better.

Never in our discussions did she say, "I'd want to have sex with you if you had more muscles." In fact, I'm pretty sure she affirmatively denied any issue with my physical appearance. (I'm tall and skinny). But, reading up on Internet forums, I embraced the unsurprising advice that "chicks dig muscles." So, I committed to gaining weight and building muscle. And, go figure, our sex life improved and she's made a lot of comments about my improving physique. I think she's been surprised by her own response. So this communication you (and others) recommend - while valuable - has some definite limitations.

I'm thinking initiation style and persistence might occupy the same sort of blind spot as my physique. But I don't know. More muscles is, comparatively, a no-brainer. So, I come to a place like this and start a discussion and try to gather the insights of others.

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, it seems like you need to have a talk with YOUR wife and see how she feels about it all, rather than using other people's experiences to help you figure out what your wife is thinking/wants.

This. The concept of "no means no" is very simple but in reality, there are soft nos and hard nos. Talk to your partner and if they're not being clear, you need to figure it out before you insert part of your body into theirs.

OP, did you post the other day about initiation? Honestly, it seems like you need to have a talk with YOUR wife and see how she feels about it all, rather than using other people's experiences to help you figure out what your wife is thinking/wants.

Anonymous wrote:Well, open and honest communication wouldn't be "I need to do x, y, and z chores" or something ambivalent or unresponsive to the initiation. Rather, it would be "you're welcome to try to get me in the mood."

When you are ambivalent and he does get you in the mood, are you happier because he persisted, or would you have been just as happy if he had dropped it and gone and done something else?

Yes, I'm always happy when he's persisted. It doesn't happen often (I'm almost always in the mood) and is usually when I have 1000 things going on in my head and just can't get them out enough to concentrate on the pleasure of sex. But when DH persists,(i.e. taking longer with pre-foreplay like kissing, light touching, etc) it helps me concentrate on that vs what is going on in my head. Can't say there has ever been a time when I would have rather he just dropped it. There have been two times during out entire time together that DH hasn't been able to get in the mood with my persistence. It happens, no big deal.

Anonymous wrote:You should know what constitutes "rapey" in your relationship with your spouse. Go take what you want or don't.

I regard ambivalence as a "no." I stay well clear of the rapey line and, therefore, don't know where it is.

What I'm wondering is if it is common for a woman to need to feel that her husband has a strong (and therefore persistent) desire for her in order for her to get out of her head and feel desire in response. If it is somewhat common, then I can explore the issue with my wife (who may or may not not know how she would respond until she experienced it). If it's just a bullshit concept I read on the Internet, then I can continue backing off in the face of ambivalence.

Do not push or initiate and don't listen to other women. There are a wide range of of sexual desires, what one woman may like or think nothing of another will be repulse by. Talk to the one you are with, but remember some will not talk about sex.

Well, open and honest communication wouldn't be "I need to do x, y, and z chores" or something ambivalent or unresponsive to the initiation. Rather, it would be "you're welcome to try to get me in the mood."

When you are ambivalent and he does get you in the mood, are you happier because he persisted, or would you have been just as happy if he had dropped it and gone and done something else?

Agree with PP. If I say "no" it means no. If I'm more ambivalent or say I'm not in the mood, it means DH is welcome to try to get me in the mood. The same goes for Dh. When he says "No" or "not tonight" it means he's not in the mood no matter what (usually correlates to a long and exhausting day at work). If he says something more along the lines of "i'm not really in the mood" then I initiate and try to get him in the mood.

it is all about open and honest communication.

I am very, VERY clear. My "no" never means "yes." Sometimes my "no" means "not now" in which case I will initiate so DH will know there was no iron gate coming down.

Sometimes he will try to initiate and my response is "I was going to give the dog a bath and then iron tonight," and he will say "How about that waits for tomorrow night?" That is him "pushing" as you would say, OP. But in that moment, I either say "No" or "Okay." If I say "No, I really need to get this done," it may be because it either really needs to get done or I am really not up for sex for whatever reason.

My "no" is always firm.

You should know what constitutes "rapey" in your relationship with your spouse. Go take what you want or don't.

Reading various marriages and relationship forums, I've seen women say that when they indicate a lack of enthusiasm toward sex (but not a hard "no") what they really end up appreciating (whether they are thinking it consciously in advance or not) is for their husband to come on stronger - sort of show he's man enough to push through her test and show that he is hot enough for her not to be deterred so easily. His energy is a turn on.

On the other hand, I've read enough feminist discussion and have been raised to be respectful enough toward women enough that I've internalized the idea that anything other than enthusiastic consent is sort of rapey.

Thoughts?

Just for clarification, I'm thinking of a husband/wife situation -- dynamics may be different, say, on a first date. I'm also thinking of a response that's less clear than "No. I don't want to have sex. Get off of me." -- More like, "Again? I'm tired. We just did it on Tuesday."