Anonymous
02/24/2014 00:58
Subject: Forced practice of Religion
Anonymous wrote:While I may be wrong, from the OP's description it sounds like she asked the priest for a reference, the priest wrote the reference, and then the priest called her out and said, "Hey, I said I knew you from Mass, so now you have to come to Mass so I'm not a liar."
Had the priest, as others have suggested, said, "I will write your recommendation if you come to Mass," that would be different.
But if the chronology is what was implied from OP's post, then the retroactive demand for consideration fails (from a legal perspective). However, you still have to live with your grandparents and deal with the priest, so I'd say you're SOL.
Legal perspective?
When you ask a priest to vouch for you, and you are Catholic, you know what that means.
Any time you ask for a reference from someone with whom you do not have a good relationship, it's bound to be problematic. This is no different.
Anonymous
02/23/2014 22:25
Subject: Forced practice of Religion
Anonymous wrote:While I may be wrong, from the OP's description it sounds like she asked the priest for a reference, the priest wrote the reference, and then the priest called her out and said, "Hey, I said I knew you from Mass, so now you have to come to Mass so I'm not a liar."
Had the priest, as others have suggested, said, "I will write your recommendation if you come to Mass," that would be different.
But if the chronology is what was implied from OP's post, then the retroactive demand for consideration fails (from a legal perspective). However, you still have to live with your grandparents and deal with the priest, so I'd say you're SOL.
Priests are very "assume-y" and people are slow to say, "Oh, and by the way, I know my last name is O'Catholic, but you should know I never go to church, and live with 3 dudes, who I sleep with on alternate nights. That is cool, right? Also, I am a kinda into witchcraft."
If you to a priest for a letter, it is implied that the letter has something to do with your religious life. If the priest was a professor, or something, and you first met the priest at mass, and then took a theology class or something, they can say, "I met her at mass, and then got to know her through her outstanding committment to the homeless when she volunteered at _____."
If the reference to mass is in the past, and you stopped going, nobody lied. If the letter says, "What I love about this kid is how she attends mass every week, and therefore you should <let her into your college, hire her, give her a pony> but you stop going, that is "uncool" but not a lie.
I suspect he (and your grandparents) want you to attend mass.
Go to church, or tune them out, unless the letter has some correlation to going to mass, like becoming a catechism teacher.
If it is not religious, and he wrote it as a friend, I think you are off the hook, because you did GO to mass when he met you, and whether or not you are going now doesn't negate the fact he first met you at church.
He could be joking to gently remind you that weekly mass is an obligation (not an opinion).
Anonymous
02/23/2014 22:11
Subject: Forced practice of Religion
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote: On the other hand, my grandparents attend mass every week. They push their beliefs onto everyone in my family, and it makes everyone uncomfortable because of the frequency in which they remind us to go. I'm not exaggerating when I say that every time I see them they ask me if I went to church. I am their closest grandchild, as they babysat me for years... but i'm also the most passive because both me and my parents go to church occasionally and do not express our opinions extensively. Why? ... out of respect. We have always just nodded and smiled because, yes, we have tried before and they just will not respect the difference in opinions.
>>>
It isn't their opinion. It is what the Catholic Church requires.
Do you drive a car? Can you NOT attend church without your parents?
My parents went to mass infrequently, so I went myself, at 15.
It is an option and you are not powerless here.
You also are not beholden to someone else for your spirtual choices.
Own them.
You can't blame your grandparents for asking an honest question. You can say "No," and tell them why.
If you were a vegetarian and they said, "Did you have any meat today," would you say yes, or would you say, "No, because for me, a better choice is this and here is why." Would it be due to morality, or because your parent didn't take you to the salad store?
Twenty is not ten. You can even say, "I have my doubts about why attending mass every week is justified. I don't find much comfort in it, and I don't think it is meaningful or critical. I'm not into it right now."
Just don't, on the flip side, expect someone to write a letter stating that you are Catholic of the year.
We asked someone in my close circle to be a Godparent once and they passed. It is an option.
Anonymous
02/23/2014 22:09
Subject: Forced practice of Religion
While I may be wrong, from the OP's description it sounds like she asked the priest for a reference, the priest wrote the reference, and then the priest called her out and said, "Hey, I said I knew you from Mass, so now you have to come to Mass so I'm not a liar."
Had the priest, as others have suggested, said, "I will write your recommendation if you come to Mass," that would be different.
But if the chronology is what was implied from OP's post, then the retroactive demand for consideration fails (from a legal perspective). However, you still have to live with your grandparents and deal with the priest, so I'd say you're SOL.
Had the priest, as others have suggested, said, "I will write your recommendation if you come to Mass," that would be different.
But if the chronology is what was implied from OP's post, then the retroactive demand for consideration fails (from a legal perspective). However, you still have to live with your grandparents and deal with the priest, so I'd say you're SOL.
Anonymous
02/23/2014 22:01
Subject: Re:Forced practice of Religion
When my kids were baptized I ask my brother to be a Godparent. The priest he knew (an uncle on his wife's side) would NOT write him a letter because he and his wife never attended mass.
I knew this could happen.
To be a Godparent, you can have one non-practicing Catholic and one practicing Catholic. I asked my sister in law (on the other side) to be the other Godparent. Her kids went to Catholic School and she attended mass weekly.
She called me, sheepishly, and let me know that in the eyes of the Church, she was not married. She had eloped, had 2 kids, and never gotten the sacrament of marriage from the Church.
So in spite of several sacraments, and 3 siblings, my Irish Catholic husband and I could not scape up "Catholic in good standing".
My SIL had her vows renewed/marriage blessed in the interim and carried the weight for my brother, who clearly stated he planned to not choose a church until he knew which one had the best preschools for his kid (Jewish, BTW) and we got on with our day.
If the reason you need this letter is to be a Godparent, ask the parents who the other Godparent is and if they are more in line with the obligations of the church. You may not need the letter.
Or, you could see this as an honor to be a spirtiual leader to a baby, and give an hour a week back to God/your grandparents. Imagine if you went with them? 1000 grandparent points!!
Up to you.
FYI, for kid #2, we asked a family member who was really at odd with The Church, out of love, and asked another Godparent who was in good standing, big time, but depressed. It was a really nice experience for all of us, b/c the one who was kinda anti-Church felt pretty "embraced" and the other one (who we might not have chosen if we didn't know we had to 'pick up the the slack' for the other one) was so over the moon about the honor, it made our whole family closer.
Good luck. My trick for finding a mass I could stand when I was younger was to listen to the beatitudes. If it was all "one issue we talk about all the time" I didn't return to that parish. If it was "we pray for "a variety of people in a variety of circumstances related to social justice cause I believe in""I would go back. I also did better at masses that were on Saturday evening or Sunday night. Holy Trinity in Georgetown was a good one!
I knew this could happen.
To be a Godparent, you can have one non-practicing Catholic and one practicing Catholic. I asked my sister in law (on the other side) to be the other Godparent. Her kids went to Catholic School and she attended mass weekly.
She called me, sheepishly, and let me know that in the eyes of the Church, she was not married. She had eloped, had 2 kids, and never gotten the sacrament of marriage from the Church.
So in spite of several sacraments, and 3 siblings, my Irish Catholic husband and I could not scape up "Catholic in good standing".
My SIL had her vows renewed/marriage blessed in the interim and carried the weight for my brother, who clearly stated he planned to not choose a church until he knew which one had the best preschools for his kid (Jewish, BTW) and we got on with our day.
If the reason you need this letter is to be a Godparent, ask the parents who the other Godparent is and if they are more in line with the obligations of the church. You may not need the letter.
Or, you could see this as an honor to be a spirtiual leader to a baby, and give an hour a week back to God/your grandparents. Imagine if you went with them? 1000 grandparent points!!
Up to you.
FYI, for kid #2, we asked a family member who was really at odd with The Church, out of love, and asked another Godparent who was in good standing, big time, but depressed. It was a really nice experience for all of us, b/c the one who was kinda anti-Church felt pretty "embraced" and the other one (who we might not have chosen if we didn't know we had to 'pick up the the slack' for the other one) was so over the moon about the honor, it made our whole family closer.
Good luck. My trick for finding a mass I could stand when I was younger was to listen to the beatitudes. If it was all "one issue we talk about all the time" I didn't return to that parish. If it was "we pray for "a variety of people in a variety of circumstances related to social justice cause I believe in""I would go back. I also did better at masses that were on Saturday evening or Sunday night. Holy Trinity in Georgetown was a good one!
Anonymous
02/23/2014 21:50
Subject: Forced practice of Religion
"I practice my religion in a different way then they do. Just because I don't go to church doesn't mean that I don't act the way that we are told that God intended. I am being forced to go to a place that is supposed to be welcoming. I should have a choice. Yet, I am not supposed to say anything to back myself up? "
I am Catholic. I assume the reference you needed was a note to say you were a Catholic in good standing, so you could do something like be a Godparent.
Am I close?
Catholics are obligated to go to mass on holy days of obligation, include all Sundays, unless you are sick.
It is a pretty clear cut rule. You don't have to pray 5 times a day facing Mecca. You don't have to circumcize your son. You don't have to honor the rules of one Mr. Smith. There are rules, though.
If you don't do it, you are a Catholic, but not a practicing Catholic. You are a practicing <insert your name here>. Actually, that is cool. You may need some time, or maybe your whole life, to weave in and out of the church. I've done that.
Now that I have kids who are old enough to understand what it is all about, I'm really "religous" about attending mass once a week. In fact, I often go more than that.
If your grandparents ask, say "No. I didn't go. I had a paper due. I had brunch plans with my friends. I was tired...". If it isn't a priority now, that isn't the end of the world. They sound like they are a moral compass.
If you want to celebrate your religion your way, maybe you should explore other churches that don't have a weekly obligation.
Catholics can always come home, and sometimes questioning the tennents of your faith will strengthen it. In fact, you may want to have lunch with the priest and say, "I attend mass sometimes/rarely, and let me tell you why." That is truly being YOU. Just be open to what he has to say back, and be prepared for some feedback.
I am Catholic. I assume the reference you needed was a note to say you were a Catholic in good standing, so you could do something like be a Godparent.
Am I close?
Catholics are obligated to go to mass on holy days of obligation, include all Sundays, unless you are sick.
It is a pretty clear cut rule. You don't have to pray 5 times a day facing Mecca. You don't have to circumcize your son. You don't have to honor the rules of one Mr. Smith. There are rules, though.
If you don't do it, you are a Catholic, but not a practicing Catholic. You are a practicing <insert your name here>. Actually, that is cool. You may need some time, or maybe your whole life, to weave in and out of the church. I've done that.
Now that I have kids who are old enough to understand what it is all about, I'm really "religous" about attending mass once a week. In fact, I often go more than that.
If your grandparents ask, say "No. I didn't go. I had a paper due. I had brunch plans with my friends. I was tired...". If it isn't a priority now, that isn't the end of the world. They sound like they are a moral compass.
If you want to celebrate your religion your way, maybe you should explore other churches that don't have a weekly obligation.
Catholics can always come home, and sometimes questioning the tennents of your faith will strengthen it. In fact, you may want to have lunch with the priest and say, "I attend mass sometimes/rarely, and let me tell you why." That is truly being YOU. Just be open to what he has to say back, and be prepared for some feedback.
Anonymous
02/23/2014 21:20
Subject: Forced practice of Religion
Anonymous wrote:Hello,
Recently I was put in a situation in which I needed a reference from a priest. The priest told me, in-front of my very catholic grandparents, that I must go to church every weekend or else he will be a liar, as he wrote that he knew me from mass on the reference. In the next hour I was reminded by them four times that I have to go. I have received multiple texts from my grandparents reminding me of this. They have even told the priest to look for me and have told me that he will be looking for me. If that is not pressuring me I do not know what is.
Note that I am a 20 year old woman who is a believer, but not an avid church goer. On the other hand, my grandparents attend mass every week. They push their beliefs onto everyone in my family, and it makes everyone uncomfortable because of the frequency in which they remind us to go. I'm not exaggerating when I say that every time I see them they ask me if I went to church. I am their closest grandchild, as they babysat me for years... but i'm also the most passive because both me and my parents go to church occasionally and do not express our opinions extensively. Why? ... out of respect. We have always just nodded and smiled because, yes, we have tried before and they just will not respect the difference in opinions. I have an idea what we could do or say in order to get them to back off a bit... at least make it comfortable to be around them again... but my parents have the control over this situation; not me. I am viewed by my grandparents as if I am a young child and I know that no matter what I say... they just aren't going to change... especially if my parents aren't 100% on board with me. They understand, but they just want to avoid the situation because saying things don't work.
I practice my religion in a different way then they do. Just because I don't go to church doesn't mean that I don't act the way that we are told that God intended. I am being forced to go to a place that is supposed to be welcoming. I should have a choice. Yet, I am not supposed to say anything to back myself up?
How should I handle this?
Growing up some would help. I realize you're only 20 but you're acting like you're about 12.
Anonymous
02/23/2014 07:31
Subject: Re:Forced practice of Religion
I think calling this the forced practice of religion is a bit disingenuous, OP. You asked your priest for something. He told you what he expected in return. Your attendance at mass was consideration, to use a legal term, for his providing the reference. If you do not want the reference, don't go to mass. There is nothing forced about your attendance, other than the fact that you need the reference. We all have to do things in life we don't particularly like. That doesn't make them forced.
Precisely. You asked for the reference. You were told the terms. Now you must either accept those terms or forgo the reference. Are you trying to "force" the priest to lie for you?
Anonymous
02/23/2014 06:09
Subject: Forced practice of Religion
Don't do things where a reference from a priest is necessary. I'm Jewishnd 45, and I can say I have never needed a reference from a priest. Or a rabbi either.
Anonymous
02/23/2014 05:57
Subject: Forced practice of Religion
I think calling this the forced practice of religion is a bit disingenuous, OP. You asked your priest for something. He told you what he expected in return. Your attendance at mass was consideration, to use a legal term, for his providing the reference. If you do not want the reference, don't go to mass. There is nothing forced about your attendance, other than the fact that you need the reference. We all have to do things in life we don't particularly like. That doesn't make them forced. You are 20 years old. Are you forced to work? Change your child's diapers? Pay car insurance? Welcome to the real world.
Anonymous
02/22/2014 22:12
Subject: Forced practice of Religion
Anonymous wrote:Why did you use a priest as a reference? You should go to church now. Priest should not have lied for you -- good grief, why did he say he knew you from mass when you don't even go -- but presumably you asked for a reference from him so you should go to church. Not the end of the world.
Agree with this.
It is like asking the local bartender to vouch for you that you don't drink, then expecting him to serve you alcohol for happy hour.
The priest is right, you are wrong, and your grandparents are (loving) busybodies.
Anonymous
02/22/2014 21:55
Subject: Re:Forced practice of Religion
Go to mass a couple times to fulfill the obligation of the priest signing some paper for you.
Lie the rest of the times.
Lie the rest of the times.
Anonymous
02/22/2014 21:52
Subject: Forced practice of Religion
Why did you use a priest as a reference? You should go to church now. Priest should not have lied for you -- good grief, why did he say he knew you from mass when you don't even go -- but presumably you asked for a reference from him so you should go to church. Not the end of the world.
Anonymous
02/22/2014 21:50
Subject: Forced practice of Religion
I forgot to include this: Note that I do not like making up excuses as I feel that is disrespectful.
Anonymous
02/22/2014 21:48
Subject: Forced practice of Religion
Hello,
Recently I was put in a situation in which I needed a reference from a priest. The priest told me, in-front of my very catholic grandparents, that I must go to church every weekend or else he will be a liar, as he wrote that he knew me from mass on the reference. In the next hour I was reminded by them four times that I have to go. I have received multiple texts from my grandparents reminding me of this. They have even told the priest to look for me and have told me that he will be looking for me. If that is not pressuring me I do not know what is.
Note that I am a 20 year old woman who is a believer, but not an avid church goer. On the other hand, my grandparents attend mass every week. They push their beliefs onto everyone in my family, and it makes everyone uncomfortable because of the frequency in which they remind us to go. I'm not exaggerating when I say that every time I see them they ask me if I went to church. I am their closest grandchild, as they babysat me for years... but i'm also the most passive because both me and my parents go to church occasionally and do not express our opinions extensively. Why? ... out of respect. We have always just nodded and smiled because, yes, we have tried before and they just will not respect the difference in opinions. I have an idea what we could do or say in order to get them to back off a bit... at least make it comfortable to be around them again... but my parents have the control over this situation; not me. I am viewed by my grandparents as if I am a young child and I know that no matter what I say... they just aren't going to change... especially if my parents aren't 100% on board with me. They understand, but they just want to avoid the situation because saying things don't work.
I practice my religion in a different way then they do. Just because I don't go to church doesn't mean that I don't act the way that we are told that God intended. I am being forced to go to a place that is supposed to be welcoming. I should have a choice. Yet, I am not supposed to say anything to back myself up?
How should I handle this?
Recently I was put in a situation in which I needed a reference from a priest. The priest told me, in-front of my very catholic grandparents, that I must go to church every weekend or else he will be a liar, as he wrote that he knew me from mass on the reference. In the next hour I was reminded by them four times that I have to go. I have received multiple texts from my grandparents reminding me of this. They have even told the priest to look for me and have told me that he will be looking for me. If that is not pressuring me I do not know what is.
Note that I am a 20 year old woman who is a believer, but not an avid church goer. On the other hand, my grandparents attend mass every week. They push their beliefs onto everyone in my family, and it makes everyone uncomfortable because of the frequency in which they remind us to go. I'm not exaggerating when I say that every time I see them they ask me if I went to church. I am their closest grandchild, as they babysat me for years... but i'm also the most passive because both me and my parents go to church occasionally and do not express our opinions extensively. Why? ... out of respect. We have always just nodded and smiled because, yes, we have tried before and they just will not respect the difference in opinions. I have an idea what we could do or say in order to get them to back off a bit... at least make it comfortable to be around them again... but my parents have the control over this situation; not me. I am viewed by my grandparents as if I am a young child and I know that no matter what I say... they just aren't going to change... especially if my parents aren't 100% on board with me. They understand, but they just want to avoid the situation because saying things don't work.
I practice my religion in a different way then they do. Just because I don't go to church doesn't mean that I don't act the way that we are told that God intended. I am being forced to go to a place that is supposed to be welcoming. I should have a choice. Yet, I am not supposed to say anything to back myself up?
How should I handle this?