Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe your daughter doesn't belong in the gifted and talented program for math. Those who excel at reading and writing rarely also excel at math. This becomes most apparent in third grade when division and fractions are introduced and the coursework gets harder. My DS was extremely good in everything until about third/fourth grade when his math grades slipped. He reads, writes, and understands languages extremely well, but math just isn't his thing. My DD is the opposite. You can do all the supplemental activities you want, which will help her to at least be proficient, but either it clicks or it doesn't.

Gifted and talented programs should split in the older grades, one track for math/science the other for reading/writing.

Mmm... I just don't accept that. I'd accept math not being someone's thing when it comes to AP Calculus. But not in 4th grade. And not is the root problem seems to be anxiety. I'd rather find ways to deal with the anxiety so she CAN have math be her thing.... if she wants. I'm not giving up in elementary school, just accepting that a child will never be competent in math.

Anxiety often stems from being unprepared. Being unprepared in math usually stems from lack of understanding. I agree intervention can help her become proficient, but it will most likely never be her thing. Of course it starts early, because math builds upon itself. You really can't get to AP Calculus without fully grasping every other math course (except maybe Geometry) up to that point. There's nothing wrong with that, though. It may help to meet the child where they are rather than try to make her become some universal superstar.

Anonymous wrote:Maybe your daughter doesn't belong in the gifted and talented program for math. Those who excel at reading and writing rarely also excel at math. This becomes most apparent in third grade when division and fractions are introduced and the coursework gets harder. My DS was extremely good in everything until about third/fourth grade when his math grades slipped. He reads, writes, and understands languages extremely well, but math just isn't his thing. My DD is the opposite. You can do all the supplemental activities you want, which will help her to at least be proficient, but either it clicks or it doesn't.

Gifted and talented programs should split in the older grades, one track for math/science the other for reading/writing.

Mmm... I just don't accept that. I'd accept math not being someone's thing when it comes to AP Calculus. But not in 4th grade. And not is the root problem seems to be anxiety. I'd rather find ways to deal with the anxiety so she CAN have math be her thing.... if she wants. I'm not giving up in elementary school, just accepting that a child will never be competent in math.

Maybe your daughter doesn't belong in the gifted and talented program for math. Those who excel at reading and writing rarely also excel at math. This becomes most apparent in third grade when division and fractions are introduced and the coursework gets harder. My DS was extremely good in everything until about third/fourth grade when his math grades slipped. He reads, writes, and understands languages extremely well, but math just isn't his thing. My DD is the opposite. You can do all the supplemental activities you want, which will help her to at least be proficient, but either it clicks or it doesn't.

Gifted and talented programs should split in the older grades, one track for math/science the other for reading/writing.

OP again -- I did find this article this morning -- am plowing through it to see if there is anything useful in it.

http://mindmodeling.org/cogsci2013/papers/0641/paper0641.pdf

Reducing the Impact of Math Anxiety on Mental Arithmetic: The Importance of Distributed Cognition

Anonymous wrote:19:19 here. I understand.

There might be several issues here: do you think that you unwittingly place too much pressure on her, leading to moments when she is paralyzed and forgets basic facts? Not trying to offend you here, but sometimes this can happen with a parent - I've had that effect myself on DS in the past, and do my best not to get upset when he makes a mistake.

Also, DS is involved in 5 extra-curriculars that sometimes can be quite mentally draining, and I can tell when he's just washed out and can't reason anymore. If so, I send him off to bed and he does his math homework in the morning before school.

Alternatively, the Gifted&Talented program may be stressing out your daughter and it is revealed in math because that's her least favorite subject. Is the environment too competitive maybe? Is it the experience of suddenly not being the "smartest" in the class? Too many expectations from the teacher?

Anyway, I hope you resolve this soon, and your daughter feels better!

Thanks PP!

No, I don't *think* I am placing too much pressure on her. The anxiety comes out of seeing something that is different than what she has been studying, that is at all hard for her.

For example, one problem asked her to do mental math: 300 - 100. EASY. No anxiety. Next, 400-100. Again, EASY. next, 300 - 99. PANIC. Those 9s and the idea that she could do the subtraction in her head made her totally shut down.

What eventually helped in the above situation was drawing a picture of 2 dollar bills and 100 pennies, and using those to show 300 cents - 100 cents, and 300 cents minus 99 cents. Using the pictures to mimic concrete objects seemed to reduce the anxiety, so I guess we'll just do a lot more of that.

My daughter is in third grade and told us around Christmas that she "wasn't good in math anymore", which broke my heart. She is learning multiplication facts right now, and I go over the facts with her every night, having her write them out four times, then go over the flash cards, then a couple word problems. I do not show any impatience when she forgets a fact she knew a few minutes before. I encourage her when she does well. I want her to LIKE math again, even if she doesn't score high. We had a trial period at mathnasium, but she said she liked my tutoring better.
We have another parent teacher conference in a couple weeks, and I'll be curious what the teacher says.
Good luck

19:19 here. I understand.

There might be several issues here: do you think that you unwittingly place too much pressure on her, leading to moments when she is paralyzed and forgets basic facts? Not trying to offend you here, but sometimes this can happen with a parent - I've had that effect myself on DS in the past, and do my best not to get upset when he makes a mistake.

Also, DS is involved in 5 extra-curriculars that sometimes can be quite mentally draining, and I can tell when he's just washed out and can't reason anymore. If so, I send him off to bed and he does his math homework in the morning before school.

Alternatively, the Gifted&Talented program may be stressing out your daughter and it is revealed in math because that's her least favorite subject. Is the environment too competitive maybe? Is it the experience of suddenly not being the "smartest" in the class? Too many expectations from the teacher?

Anyway, I hope you resolve this soon, and your daughter feels better!

OP here -- what is concerning to me isnt' so much my daughter's lack of basic facts because I can see that with practice she is getting better. What is really helping is the flashcards I got from Singapore Math. The ones that seem to be most useful right now are the part-whole cards where the top part is one rectangle, and the bottom part is divided into two proportional rectangles. So if the whole is 9, and one of the parts is 8, it is pretty clear from the size of the remaining rectangle that the other number has to be very small.

http://www.singaporemath.com/Part_Whole_Cards_p/mnpwc.htm

So clearly she needs these. I've noticed she is very fuzzy when the top "whole' number is 7, 8 or 9. She really doesn't yet just "get" that 5+2 = 7. And she doesn't even have all her number bonds that add up to 10. So she needs this practice.

BUT what is concerning to me is that even with all the practice, when she seems like she does really know some facts... if she gets flustered, she quickly loses all confidence. She really seems like she is panicking -- even easy facts that she really does know (without counting on her fingers) seem to fly out of her head. I am trying to find ways to help her deal with and handle this anxiety.

DS is in 3rd grade and has been saying he "hates" math for a while now. He also forgets basic math facts and has but lately stopped counting on his fingers. On the other hand, when in good form, he can resolved higher-order math problems!

I have come to accept that some have math-oriented brains and some don't. I struggled with math as a child and went on to become a scientist! DH is a statistician and a math whizz, but sadly this knack has not been transmitted to DS.

My solution is to drill basic math, in the belief that practice will breed confidence and automatism. Since I don't like DS to use my computer, I bought him Math Shark, a portable device to practice the 4 operations:
http://www.amazon.com/Educational-Insights-8490-Mathshark/dp/B00000IRMM
Some reviews say that it can break down after a while, but this has not happened to us yet, after 3 months of regular use. DS does 5 minutes every day willingly and it has noticeably improved his speed and memory.

After much research, I also came to the conclusion that additional math methods such as Singapore Maths were not the right solution for us. Not bashing them, it looks pretty good, just too involved and time-consuming.

The critical thing for DS is just lots and lots of practice with basic operations.

I am the PP who posted about Homeschool Buyers Coop. I just checked, their price is for 3 "seats" ($59). Since I have two DDs, it was cheaper to go that route. My 3rd grader did multiplication/division and my younger DD is doing addition/subtraction. I figure that since I have one more seat, I'll have my little one start multiplication/division when she finishes +/-.

It is cheaper to buy direct if you only need 1 seat/subscription for multiplication/division.

We used ReflexMath to solidify math facts. It has been worth it. I purchased it through Homeschool Buyers Coop for a discount. It took a little bit for my DDs to get into it, there was some pressure at first to be fast enough, but after about a week, they both work on it with no problem. In just doing that, their confidence in math has grown.

Thank you both!

I think it's a common issue in 3rd grade and it's not too hard to solve, just takes daily drilling for a few months. Practice active listening, repeat back to her what she's saying so she knows that you understand. Tell her you know she can learn this and that together you are going to make a plan for her to learn the math facts. Decide on your plan and help her make it happen. Set up a system of rewards to keep it somewhat fun.

There are lots of options -
Kumon (but you really have to commit for 12+ months to see results though the results are solid)
http://www.tabtor.com/
reflexmath.com
Flashmaster electronic toy
the 24 card game

My DD was this way -- super high verbal, high-but-not-great math test scores + shouting "I'm not good at math!", throwing her pencil/book, etc..

I don't have a magic cure all. I just forced her to learn her math facts with the hope that what would be taught in school would come easier to her once the math facts were in her head. There wasn't an easy solution. I even consulted with her reg. teacher and the adv. math teacher to tell them it wasn't working (being in adv. math). They assured me that she should be in adv. math.

We got through 3rd grade, and kept the wheels greased all summer by doing 2 pages of a 4th grade workbook each day. 4th grade seems to be going better. She still immediately says "I don't know how to do this" rather than try to untangle a problem on her own. But, the most important thing I've seen (which is exactly as I had hoped) is that DD now sees herself as "good" in math! She knows that she goes to the "advanced" math class and even though she doesn't have the quickest wit with math (yet), she will say "I'm good at math even though I don't really like it." -- see how her perspective has started to evolve from last year when she was shouting "It's too hard!!!" and "I hate math!" and "I'm not good at math!!!"?

By being in adv. math and holding her own (b/c I made sure she got her facts memorized come hell or highwater), she has internalized that she is good in math. My hope is that over time, she might also say that she likes it.

There is no chance a child will like math if they don't have the basic skills. Adding/subtracting are the cornerstones of multiplication. Multiplication is 100% essential to fractions and division. The math facts have to be there or success is impossible.

Confidence comes from competence. In math, competence means they have to memorize the facts. For my DD, this was quite a struggle. Some kids have to work harder in the beginning to "get" a skill... but that is not a reason to quit. I believe the results will be there in the end... it's just going to take more effort to get to the same place.

OP, maybe someone else has a better solution for you. I just wanted you to know that your daughter is not the only one and you are not the only one who has been in the same situation. 3rd grade year was very hard for us, but it has improved substantially.

My 3rd grade daughter is in a gifted and talented program; she's very bright and excellent at reading, writing, and keeping herself organized/time management issues.

She gets OK grades in math but still seems like she is struggling. She struggles with her basic math facts (even addition/subtraction) and is still counting on her fingers.

She has lately been saying she's bad at math, especially mental math. She says when the teacher explains things in class, she just doesn't get it.

She is one of the youngest children in her class, with a summer birthday.

I have been using Singapore Math workbooks and flashcards with her, and even very basic ten frame/number dots, to help build her confidence and number sense, which is what I think is lacking. But what I have noticed is that when she works with me, she is OK, up until she hits something that is a little bit difficult. Then she honestly seems to panic. She gets all flustered, and forgets even things that she really knows.

She also seems to hum or sing when she is doing problems that are really hard for her -- the louder she sings, the more stressed out she is, I think.

Do you have any ideas for strategies to help her be less anxious when it comes to math? Basically I am hoping just to build up her skills so she doesn't get so stressed, but I am wondering if there are other ideas.