Anonymous wrote:

I grew up in one of these all white schools and remember the elementary school year when school was integrated.

PP at 11:48, you were in elementary school in the early 1960s?

Where do you get early 1960's from? The early sixties was just the very beginning of these debates. The specific changes I mention happened in the BCC cluster in the mid seventies, when I was in elementary school. The debates about forced busing, school closings and special programs continued into the early 80s, as I remember. The Eisenberg case happened in 1999. Segregation/integration issues are part of our very recent history (sadly).

College Gardens was chosen for Chinese immersion because it is fairly centrally located/was slated to get an addition to handle extra kids (though now it is very over crowded) /and had an IB program which had a language requirement..not to raise scores. They, in theory, can go to Hoover and Churchhill but only with parent provided transportation after ES so that is a huge factor. I think neighborhood families would be very happy to spin it off to relieve overcrowding.

Anonymous wrote:I know a family where both parents are native Spanish speakers and who have maternal grandparents living with them who speak no English, and they did not make a conscious effort to speak to their daughter in Spanish. Then they applied for Spanish immersion starting in K and got in.

So they took up a slot for someone who did not have the opportunity of immersion at home, so their kid could attend schools from a better pyramid (they live in Germantown, MD.)

I guess we should start using the perceived background of students to determine whether they can take advantage of county programs.

Anonymous wrote:I agree that the current system is broken. I would be very interested in sending my DD to the Spanish immersion program, but I'm not interested in adding a huge commute, and I'm not doing it to for the purpose of a backdoor cluster COSA. Under the current system, some parents choosing the program are doing so for the purpose of the backdoor COSA instead of a real desire to do immersion, which just makes the immersion program less effective for those participating.

How, exactly, does the presence of students whose parents chose immersion to avoid their home schools cause the program to be less effective than it would be if everyone who enrolled did so with immersion as the sole motivator?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know a family where both parents are native Spanish speakers and who have maternal grandparents living with them who speak no English, and they did not make a conscious effort to speak to their daughter in Spanish. Then they applied for Spanish immersion starting in K and got in.

So they took up a slot for someone who did not have the opportunity of immersion at home, so their kid could attend schools from a better pyramid (they live in Germantown, MD.)

No they didn't. Their kid had just as much right to her slot as anybody else's kid.

Ditto. Also, even with native speakers at home kids often aren't learning how to read, write, speak with proper grammar, etc. It's the same logic behind why native English speaking kids take English class every year.

I agree that the current system is broken. I would be very interested in sending my DD to the Spanish immersion program, but I'm not interested in adding a huge commute, and I'm not doing it to for the purpose of a backdoor cluster COSA. Under the current system, some parents choosing the program are doing so for the purpose of the backdoor COSA instead of a real desire to do immersion, which just makes the immersion program less effective for those participating.

Anonymous wrote:I know a family where both parents are native Spanish speakers and who have maternal grandparents living with them who speak no English, and they did not make a conscious effort to speak to their daughter in Spanish. Then they applied for Spanish immersion starting in K and got in.

So they took up a slot for someone who did not have the opportunity of immersion at home, so their kid could attend schools from a better pyramid (they live in Germantown, MD.)

No they didn't. Their kid had just as much right to her slot as anybody else's kid.

I know a family where both parents are native Spanish speakers and who have maternal grandparents living with them who speak no English, and they did not make a conscious effort to speak to their daughter in Spanish. Then they applied for Spanish immersion starting in K and got in.

So they took up a slot for someone who did not have the opportunity of immersion at home, so their kid could attend schools from a better pyramid (they live in Germantown, MD.)

I agree that the model needs to be updated. Interestingly, MCPS has budgeted in 2015 for an outside study of all immersion and other signature programs to assess whether they are currently meeting student needs. So perhaps some changes are coming...

I'm actually VERY familiar with the history and live in a zone where one of the programs used to be hosted. The problem is the model is outdated, the demographics of the region have changed drastically since Brown v. Board, and the limited interaction between the wealthy kids drawn in from out of boundary really limits the benefit of "integration" supposedly accomplished. In our area, it is common knowledge that you apply to the immersion programs to avoid the local schools. This contributes to an ever-increasing poverty rate at those local schools, which are pretty much abandoned by the in-boundary middle class families. So while some of the schools that host the programs may experience a benefit of at least the appearance of integration, it consolidates poverty at the schools that parents have given up on. There is not a net benefit there. There are some very clear losers. The program should adjust to the times. Given the huge increase in the local hispanic population, there is a very real need to start refining our approach to english language learning through the dual language model.

I grew up in one of these all white schools and remember the elementary school year when school was integrated.

PP at 11:48, you were in elementary school in the early 1960s?

Anonymous wrote:I'm all for my child learning a new language and I understand the value of language immersion. I am not questioning that. What I am questioning is how it is implemented in MoCty. Only a few schools offer the programs and only a few students any year get into the program. It seems like a great benefit for those few, but it costs the county extra money in funding the program and transportation related problems. Those who seem to benefit the most are kids from families who live in "less desirable" school districts (using quotes b/c I'm not sure they are truly less desirable but the cost of living is lower), who now have to opportunity to attend schools in more affluent neighborhoods. Not true of all the programs but take for example a child who was slated to attend school in the Watkins Glen HS district, who now attends College Gardens Elem, Hover MS, and Churchill HS. COSAs are generally approved for this child if she sticks with the language immersion. Not to knock the benefit to the child, but what is the point of this Mo Cty expense if it is not offered to all? I think I understand how magnet schools are different, in theory, because they are addressing a need for specific children that is not being addressed in her current school. And not all kids have that same need so it doesn't make sense, in theory, to offer the magnet curriculum at all schools.

I don't mean this as a criticism of those who choose the immersion programs. It's more that I think it is short sighted of MoCty not to offer language as part of its curriculum at all schools, and I'm curious how the program came about and is only available to a select few.

These language programs are not only in wealthy neighborhoods (like Rock Creek Forest/BCC), but also in "less desirable" schools like Rolling Terrace (partial Spanish) and Sligo (French) and Maryvale (French). In addition, there are magnet programs at "less desirable" schools like Eastern MS, Blair, Takoma MS, and Sligo MS. Plus there are many special "choice" programs in the MoCo DownCounty Consortium at each of the home schools (Einstein for Visual Arts, Kennedy Leadership Training, Jefferson Technology program, Blair CAP, etc.)

As a long time MoCo resident and graduate of MCPS, I can tell you that all these programs (language, choice and magnets) were created at a time when it became clear after Brown v. Board of Ed. and subsequent Supreme Court cases that MoCo was out of compliance in terms of school segregation. Supreme Court case law was such that it was only a matter of time before a case would be brought that would definitely result in court-ordered desegregation by whatever means. Forced busing was seen to be a disaster resulting either in white flight (see Prince William county, which basically lost all it's white students to private schools and closed it's public school system) or tremendous community anger (see Boston). Voluntary efforts to desegregate were seen as a better idea than waiting for a court-order forcing a plan on the county. So, instead of using "push" or forced integration, MoCo tried to use "pull" or voluntary integration by school choice by offering magnet, language immersion and other special programs parents could choose to move their kids to. The idea was that these special programs could draw a demographic of kids into a neighborhood school that would balance out to some degree the racial inequalities created by segregated neighborhoods and schools.

In the "wealthy" BCC cluster, for example, the lower elementary schools (RHPS, BES, NCC and CCES) were rearranged to more evenly distribute minority and low income kids from Rosemary Hills and Rock Creek Forest. (At that time RHPS was basically the "black" school and all the others were pretty much lily white, as well with the neighborhoods.) Rock Creek got the Spanish immersion, and RHPS and CCES were given a special magnet/technology status (long since gone in the case of RHPS, and only dropped in the past 5 years at CCES. By the end at CCES, the "program" consisted of 1 specially trained teacher who gave science labs in a lab-equipped classroom.)

These special programs used to accept applications from kids giving considerable weight in admittance to children of different races that would balance out the whole school demographic. This was accepted until the Supreme Court case, Eisenberg, in which a white family claimed that their child was denied admission to RHPS on the basis of race. (The student was a white child seeking to leave a school with a high minority presence.) The SCt. decided that admittance/denial of transfer on the basis of race was impermissible. But, the programs themselves were legal, and continued since they did serve the purpose of continuing to integrate schools, either by retaining white families in public schools or by re-balancing the demographic by via transfer by choice. To this day, MCPS decisions about admittance to special programs is race-blind due to the Eisenberg decision, although some special programs like Loiderman, Argyle, etc. use SES/FARMS status, which is probably to some degree a proxy for race.

In general, these programs don't cost much "extra." The main cost in any schooling is the teachers. Immersion and magnet programs have the same student/teacher ratios as the regular school, so they cost approximately the same in terms of expenses to cover teacher salaries. There may be a modest amount of money in a program coordinator at a school. There is also money for transportation of students outside the homeschool boundary, but of course, the original purpose of these programs -- integration -- would be a failure if only rich people who could afford private transport for their students could participate.

This is not only a benefit for children in "less desirable" schools. If you look at the long list of special MCPS programs and plot them across the county, you can see them everywhere. My child comes from a "more desirable" school district, yet we sent DC to a "less desirable" school to participate in a magnet program. We view this (i.e. the academic rigor and the integration) as a HUGE benefit of MCPS, and it is, frankly, the only reason we moved to MoCo. Otherwise, we would have remained in DC or gone private.

I grew up in one of these all white schools and remember the elementary school year when school was integrated. It was a huge benefit to ME personally to grow up in an school that was both racially and economically integrated and still had strong academics.

I'm sorry you think this benefits only a few. Perhaps knowing more facts and history, you can rethink the calculation.

BTW, I do agree with one aspect of your post, and that is that foreign language education ought to be available to all students county-wide, IMO starting as early as K and not any later than 3rd, with an option to opt out and not start until MS or HS when some kids may start their 1st foreign language and others might opt to pick up a 2nd foreign language. If you want to talk about a global, 21st century education, more, better and earlier foreign language education options ought to be a part of the plan, not just STEM.

MCPS really is doing it wrong. What they should be doing is implementing dual language immersion in as many schools as possible. It is a great way of teaching english language learners and it has the added benefit of introducing foreign language to english-dominant children. There are many school districts across the country that are trying to implement these programs. The idea is that learning at least some educational content in one's own language has myriad benefits. It gives spanish-dominant children more confidence in the classroom, teachers are less likely to perceive non-english-dominant students as less intelligent, it legitimizes the value of one's own culture and language. Here in MCPS, the immersion programs are simply a way of giving middle class families who know how to navigate the system better opportunities. That's great and all, but the programs should be reevaluated and implemented with more of an eye towards improving educational outcomes rather than providing unique opportunities for a very small minority of the lucky students who win the lottery. Just my two cents.

I tend to agree with this, although I don't really have a better idea for how they could implement this, except to expand programs to fully meet demand.

As a side note, I've read that, as part of the bell times proposal, they are considering foreign language as an option for the extra 30 minutes a day of elementary school. I wonder if there is a way to advocate for this?

I'm all for my child learning a new language and I understand the value of language immersion. I am not questioning that. What I am questioning is how it is implemented in MoCty. Only a few schools offer the programs and only a few students any year get into the program. It seems like a great benefit for those few, but it costs the county extra money in funding the program and transportation related problems. Those who seem to benefit the most are kids from families who live in "less desirable" school districts (using quotes b/c I'm not sure they are truly less desirable but the cost of living is lower), who now have to opportunity to attend schools in more affluent neighborhoods. Not true of all the programs but take for example a child who was slated to attend school in the Watkins Glen HS district, who now attends College Gardens Elem, Hover MS, and Churchill HS. COSAs are generally approved for this child if she sticks with the language immersion. Not to knock the benefit to the child, but what is the point of this Mo Cty expense if it is not offered to all? I think I understand how magnet schools are different, in theory, because they are addressing a need for specific children that is not being addressed in her current school. And not all kids have that same need so it doesn't make sense, in theory, to offer the magnet curriculum at all schools.

I don't mean this as a criticism of those who choose the immersion programs. It's more that I think it is short sighted of MoCty not to offer language as part of its curriculum at all schools, and I'm curious how the program came about and is only available to a select few.