Anonymous
12/06/2013 21:24
Subject: Lottery for all middle and high schools -- what are people really proposing?
I went to a focus group this week and what I found curious were the parents who bought in Shaw, Columbia Heights, etc. that somehow want access to Deal. I mean, what were you thinking when you bought there? You buy a house for a steal seven years ago, get a 100% return on your investment and NOW you want access to the best MS in the city accross town because you say "everyone deserves access to high quality education and my taxes are as good as yours." Sorry friend, your luck has run out and you are going to have to live with the consequences of your location choice.
Anonymous
12/06/2013 20:38
Subject: Lottery for all middle and high schools -- what are people really proposing?
Sorry. Forgot to preview:
Charter parent here. Can't wait to have those would-be Deal kids at Latin or BASIS.
Charter parent here. Can't wait to have those would-be Deal kids at Latin or BASIS.
Anonymous
12/06/2013 20:37
Subject: Lottery for all middle and high schools -- what are people really proposing?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I think your premise, about setting aside the "all the upper NW folks will leave town or go private" and the "if you lottery Deal or Wilson, they will cease to be desirable schools" arguments, is the real issue. I live in upperNW, cannot afford private for two kids (rented for 9 years until we could buy a small fixer upper, no biglaw partner here), and if there is a citywide lottery we are going to move (unless we can get a spot at a good MS and HS charter, which I think at that point would be even more difficult). there is no way I am going to drive my kids potentially across town, or let them go by themselves in middle school, when Deal and Wilson are three blocks away. tax me more if you need more money to promote better schools everywhere, but this type of solution would simply be nonsense and would drive us (and I think others) out. I am not sure what is left would make great DC shools.
Agree with this except for any implication that the problem is a lack of money. It is not, the problem is an unwillingness to take any action that appears to be intended to intentionally create a significant majority of prepared kids in a well run middle school. It appears too elitist if it does not happen by the happenstance of a pretty good school located in an UMC area of the city being turned into a desireable school (what happened at Deal). Thy cannot creat a new middle fed by the successful ESs that do not currently feed Deal.
Charter parent here. Can't wait to have those would-be Deal kids at Latin or BASIS.
And add to this the sad fact that under this system, Deal and Wilson are likely to regress. So even if you get a spot, you might not want to send them.
Sure am glad I didn't buy that house in Crestwood or Mt. Pleasant . . .
Anonymous
12/06/2013 18:22
Subject: Lottery for all middle and high schools -- what are people really proposing?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I think your premise, about setting aside the "all the upper NW folks will leave town or go private" and the "if you lottery Deal or Wilson, they will cease to be desirable schools" arguments, is the real issue. I live in upperNW, cannot afford private for two kids (rented for 9 years until we could buy a small fixer upper, no biglaw partner here), and if there is a citywide lottery we are going to move (unless we can get a spot at a good MS and HS charter, which I think at that point would be even more difficult). there is no way I am going to drive my kids potentially across town, or let them go by themselves in middle school, when Deal and Wilson are three blocks away. tax me more if you need more money to promote better schools everywhere, but this type of solution would simply be nonsense and would drive us (and I think others) out. I am not sure what is left would make great DC shools.
Agree with this except for any implication that the problem is a lack of money. It is not, the problem is an unwillingness to take any action that appears to be intended to intentionally create a significant majority of prepared kids in a well run middle school. It appears too elitist if it does not happen by the happenstance of a pretty good school located in an UMC area of the city being turned into a desireable school (what happened at Deal). Thy cannot creat a new middle fed by the successful ESs that do not currently feed Deal.
And add to this the sad fact that under this system, Deal and Wilson are likely to regress. So even if you get a spot, you might not want to send them.
Sure am glad I didn't buy that house in Crestwood or Mt. Pleasant . . .
Anonymous
12/06/2013 18:20
Subject: Lottery for all middle and high schools -- what are people really proposing?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I don't think the second option - eliminating boundaries and have a lottery for MS and HS - is a real solution. It doesn't make any sense and takes the choice out of the hands of families. I don't think we need more lotteries, we just need more stellar options and offerings. What I can't understand is why there hasn't been any real movement to improve programming so that more schools are up to par with desirable schools.
That might be true, but folks are actually proposing this in focus groups. Maybe they are not serious, but I doubt that. I'd just like to hear a more nuanced view than what I have heard so far.
What folks? People from DCPS? OSSE? Or Joe Schmo, who lives in Ward 4 and is pissed that Deal/Wilson are no longer the options he thought they were? There's a world of difference. There's someone on DCUM who proposes to outlaw private schools. There's another who is obsessed with the President's purported scent. They may well be serious, but who cares?
Anonymous
12/06/2013 18:14
Subject: Lottery for all middle and high schools -- what are people really proposing?
Agree, I think it would irreparably harm the school system to do city wide lottery, even if only for MS and HS. I also highly doubt they would take this approach. But I wouldn't be surprised if some super complicated hybrid of in boundary and lottery spots was attempted.
Anonymous
12/06/2013 18:03
Subject: Lottery for all middle and high schools -- what are people really proposing?
Anonymous wrote:I think your premise, about setting aside the "all the upper NW folks will leave town or go private" and the "if you lottery Deal or Wilson, they will cease to be desirable schools" arguments, is the real issue. I live in upperNW, cannot afford private for two kids (rented for 9 years until we could buy a small fixer upper, no biglaw partner here), and if there is a citywide lottery we are going to move (unless we can get a spot at a good MS and HS charter, which I think at that point would be even more difficult). there is no way I am going to drive my kids potentially across town, or let them go by themselves in middle school, when Deal and Wilson are three blocks away. tax me more if you need more money to promote better schools everywhere, but this type of solution would simply be nonsense and would drive us (and I think others) out. I am not sure what is left would make great DC shools.
Agree with this except for any implication that the problem is a lack of money. It is not, the problem is an unwillingness to take any action that appears to be intended to intentionally create a significant majority of prepared kids in a well run middle school. It appears too elitist if it does not happen by the happenstance of a pretty good school located in an UMC area of the city being turned into a desireable school (what happened at Deal). Thy cannot creat a new middle fed by the successful ESs that do not currently feed Deal.
Anonymous
12/06/2013 17:49
Subject: Lottery for all middle and high schools -- what are people really proposing?
I think your premise, about setting aside the "all the upper NW folks will leave town or go private" and the "if you lottery Deal or Wilson, they will cease to be desirable schools" arguments, is the real issue. I live in upperNW, cannot afford private for two kids (rented for 9 years until we could buy a small fixer upper, no biglaw partner here), and if there is a citywide lottery we are going to move (unless we can get a spot at a good MS and HS charter, which I think at that point would be even more difficult). there is no way I am going to drive my kids potentially across town, or let them go by themselves in middle school, when Deal and Wilson are three blocks away. tax me more if you need more money to promote better schools everywhere, but this type of solution would simply be nonsense and would drive us (and I think others) out. I am not sure what is left would make great DC shools.
Anonymous
12/06/2013 16:15
Subject: Lottery for all middle and high schools -- what are people really proposing?
Of the DCPS schools, I believe that Stuart Hobson had a wait list that not all students were admitted.
don't forget the charter middle schools, which on your list would join Hardy as a "lottery". Basis, Cap City, Washington Latin, 2 Rivers, EL Haynes, I would guess all had more 5th / 6th graders interested than they were able to enroll.
In a couple years, DCI will also be "lottery".
don't forget the charter middle schools, which on your list would join Hardy as a "lottery". Basis, Cap City, Washington Latin, 2 Rivers, EL Haynes, I would guess all had more 5th / 6th graders interested than they were able to enroll.
In a couple years, DCI will also be "lottery".
Anonymous
12/06/2013 16:12
Subject: Re:Lottery for all middle and high schools -- what are people really proposing?
I'm not sure that anyone has a proposal for a fully thought out lottery-based high school system. However, DCPS is only marginally neighborhood based as is. There are already application based high schools...
My understanding is that of the existing neighborhood schools, many have high percentages of OOB students. Other than some families in bounds for Wilson, is the current neighborhood approach serving many students well?
DCPS has six specialized high schools that admit students based on specific criteria, or eligibility requirements. Anyone can apply to these schools, but only students who meet a specialized high school’s requirements will be eligible to attend that school.
The specialized high schools, all grades 9–12, are:
•Benjamin Banneker High School
•Columbia Heights Education Campus (CHEC) — CHEC serves grades 6–12. Only grades 9–12 are part of the specialized high school.
•Duke Ellington School of the Arts
•McKinley Technology High School
•Phelps Architecture, Construction and Engineering High School
•School Without Walls High School
My understanding is that of the existing neighborhood schools, many have high percentages of OOB students. Other than some families in bounds for Wilson, is the current neighborhood approach serving many students well?
Anonymous
12/06/2013 16:06
Subject: Lottery for all middle and high schools -- what are people really proposing?
Allow me to throw out a related question: what is the purpose of boundaries?
Looking at middle schools, as a practical matter there are only two DCPS middle schools where boundaries even matter, Deal and Hardy. All of the others turn away no student who wants to attend. Hardy has so few in-boundary kids that it is effectively a lottery school already. So the current landscape is three tiers:
In-boundary: Deal
Lottery: Hardy
Open enrollment: all the others
Looking at middle schools, as a practical matter there are only two DCPS middle schools where boundaries even matter, Deal and Hardy. All of the others turn away no student who wants to attend. Hardy has so few in-boundary kids that it is effectively a lottery school already. So the current landscape is three tiers:
In-boundary: Deal
Lottery: Hardy
Open enrollment: all the others
Anonymous
12/06/2013 15:49
Subject: Lottery for all middle and high schools -- what are people really proposing?
PP: I assume you meant "is NOT a real solution"?
If so, I totally agree. Families need certainty about where their kids will be able to go to school. And I agree; the fundamental problem is that we need more good schools. If only 10% of middle and high schools are good then we're all just going to fight about which 10% of kids in the city should get to go there. That's not a reasonable situation.
If so, I totally agree. Families need certainty about where their kids will be able to go to school. And I agree; the fundamental problem is that we need more good schools. If only 10% of middle and high schools are good then we're all just going to fight about which 10% of kids in the city should get to go there. That's not a reasonable situation.
Anonymous
12/06/2013 15:49
Subject: Lottery for all middle and high schools -- what are people really proposing?
Anonymous wrote:I don't think the second option - eliminating boundaries and have a lottery for MS and HS - is a real solution. It doesn't make any sense and takes the choice out of the hands of families. I don't think we need more lotteries, we just need more stellar options and offerings. What I can't understand is why there hasn't been any real movement to improve programming so that more schools are up to par with desirable schools.
That might be true, but folks are actually proposing this in focus groups. Maybe they are not serious, but I doubt that. I'd just like to hear a more nuanced view than what I have heard so far.
Anonymous
12/06/2013 15:41
Subject: Lottery for all middle and high schools -- what are people really proposing?
I don't think the second option - eliminating boundaries and have a lottery for MS and HS - is a real solution. It doesn't make any sense and takes the choice out of the hands of families. I don't think we need more lotteries, we just need more stellar options and offerings. What I can't understand is why there hasn't been any real movement to improve programming so that more schools are up to par with desirable schools.
Anonymous
12/06/2013 15:21
Subject: Lottery for all middle and high schools -- what are people really proposing?
I have been to one of the focus groups, talke to friends and other parents, and read a number of posts here and in other places. I sense two "big picture" solutions on school boundaries.
One model is keeping neighborhood schools but either shifting the boundaries to remove certain schools from Deal/Wilson or to change the feeder pattern for OOB students. That vision seems to be coupled with a "let's make the other schools better" so the folks who lose out have some better alternative. People have proposed new middle or high schools clustered in certain neighborhoods or test-in schools. This solution doesn't strike me as a one where the folks who get cut out of Deal or Wilson are happy with the outcome, but it offers hope and the prospects of improvement, which is something.
On the other hand, the other model seems to be let's get rid of all boundaries and have folks lottery in for all high schools and maybe all middle schools as well. The premise, at least as I have heard it, is we cannot make the schools any better and lotteries or some other general allocation mechanism are a fairer way to distribute seats to the best schools. Let's set aside two related arguments -- the "all the upper NW folks will leave town or go private" and the "if you lottery Deal or Wilson, they will cease to be desirable schools" arguments -- for a second. I am curious about two things:
First, how do the folks envision that this open lottery process would work? Are trying to give DCPS schools certain characters (the arts school, the tech school, the languages school) to distinguish themselves? Or are some schools test-in and some lottery?
Second, and related, what is the "hook" that tries to make the neighborhood schools crowd feel a little better with this plan? Or is there not one?
Finally, I realize that this forum is an extremely imperfect one to have this sort of conversation. Many of the post will just rant or whatever, or accuse me of being a troll. But frankly, the city doesn't have a lot of general fora for this kind of discussion on school boundaries, so as imperfect as DCUM is, it is what we have.
One model is keeping neighborhood schools but either shifting the boundaries to remove certain schools from Deal/Wilson or to change the feeder pattern for OOB students. That vision seems to be coupled with a "let's make the other schools better" so the folks who lose out have some better alternative. People have proposed new middle or high schools clustered in certain neighborhoods or test-in schools. This solution doesn't strike me as a one where the folks who get cut out of Deal or Wilson are happy with the outcome, but it offers hope and the prospects of improvement, which is something.
On the other hand, the other model seems to be let's get rid of all boundaries and have folks lottery in for all high schools and maybe all middle schools as well. The premise, at least as I have heard it, is we cannot make the schools any better and lotteries or some other general allocation mechanism are a fairer way to distribute seats to the best schools. Let's set aside two related arguments -- the "all the upper NW folks will leave town or go private" and the "if you lottery Deal or Wilson, they will cease to be desirable schools" arguments -- for a second. I am curious about two things:
First, how do the folks envision that this open lottery process would work? Are trying to give DCPS schools certain characters (the arts school, the tech school, the languages school) to distinguish themselves? Or are some schools test-in and some lottery?
Second, and related, what is the "hook" that tries to make the neighborhood schools crowd feel a little better with this plan? Or is there not one?
Finally, I realize that this forum is an extremely imperfect one to have this sort of conversation. Many of the post will just rant or whatever, or accuse me of being a troll. But frankly, the city doesn't have a lot of general fora for this kind of discussion on school boundaries, so as imperfect as DCUM is, it is what we have.