It's the principal's job to complain that the staffing formula set by administration doesn't work therefore they should get a new teacher? Perhaps it's their job to complain that things aren't working well, but wouldn't it just be better to have a staffing formula that actually worked for the rooms our schools have and the teachers who will be teaching the children? Why put this burden on the principals to use up money and time complaining to admin? There really isn't a lot a principal can do with a 26.25 ratio when say one grade averages out to 22 children a class and she has to maintain a 26.25 ratio for the entire school and she doesn't meet enough children for another teacher. The number is too large to have a combination class so that grade stays as is and all the other grades get much larger and have classes over 30 or all close to 30. They are already large to start with at this 26.25 ratio if you include special needs students on top of this and children coming in through the year.

The special needs students really should be included in the total counts. In my dd's second grade class, they have a core number of 27 but a separate group of six or so SN dc come in for certain subjects. These kids still need desks, chairs, square footage and oxygen even if they are only in the room for part of the day! There are two separate issues--having a low enough student: teacher ratio and having enough physical space for the students to learn.

True, but why should they have to? Why should they have to start with a ratio that simply doesn't work well for student learning?

Because that is the principal's job.

True, but why should they have to? Why should they have to start with a ratio that simply doesn't work well for student learning?

Some principals don't want to complain and beg to their superiors. They don't want to be that squeaky wheel. Upper management says "no" and they say "okay".

Personally I think the maximums are ridiculous especially considering the level 2 children don't get included in the count. I don't think class size will be fixed unless the average class size is tweaked. Even if the max was by school instead of countywide, if there were two level 2 children in each classroom, the numbers could be 32 in grades 1-3 and 37 in grades 4-6. 37 in particular seems insane for a teacher to handle and just in terms of space. After 28 children, the classrooms at our school get too cramped to fit enough children and move around easily enough. And at 28 they are even still overly loud for learning. So including the level 2 students, we need a ratio of 26:1 just to fit everyone well enough in the classroom and not make it too overwhelming for the teacher. And really it needs to be an even lower ratio when you factor in that you don't get a new teacher until you have all additional 26.25 students and the average classroom sizes are calculated in Sept/Oct instead of through the year when more students arrive which at our school is about 2 more students per class per year. Currently the ratio for general ed is 26.25:1 whereas the state ratio is 24:1 in grades 1-3 and 25:1 in grades 4-6 or an average of 24.5. FCPS is meeting those ratios overall by putting additional teachers in title 1 schools and schools with high ESL students instead of giving each school the number of teachers it would get under the state law. These are the needs based staffing ratios.

Has been overcrowded the whole time we have been here in Vienna. Bursting. The population grows faster than the teacher hiring.

We are in vienna, too, and it think it depends on the principal's philosophy. They hired a new teacher this year and gave her to the first grade for a total of 4 first grade classes.

5th grade meanwhile only has 2 classes while all other grades have 3.

This is because our principal likes low class numbers in the younger grades so that's where she allocates her staff. Population levels off after AAP departures so the older grades get less staff and higher class numbers.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Level 2 special ed students are not counted in a class size total or class averages. The state only holds FCPS to a set of standards, not each individual school so there is no individual school accountability. ESL and FRM students have a much lower ratio of students to each classroom teacher than general ed or AAP students. These teachers are in addition to specialists for these children and are calculated by what FCPS calls a needs based staffing formula. Other schools with few ESL and FRM students have classes higher than the state max average and max class size limits. Some principals are better at working the current system than others and getting additional teachers, but regardless the system isn't working well for many schools and needs to be revamped. Detailed budget information including class size ratios is found in the approved budget book. http://www.fcps.edu/fs/budget/budgetdocuments.shtml

That's kind of the answer (non answer) we get- we are in Vienna, however, Mclean schools seem to get that "not over 30" and will get a new teacher.

McLean school parent here and this isn't true at our school, Franklin Sherman. It is the smallest elementary in FC but only has two teachers in 4th, 5th, and 6th grade. Each of those teachers then has 30-32 children in each of their classes, which is totally ridiculous!

There are seven ES in the county smaller than Franklin Sherman. It may be the smallest school in the cluster.

In our school, we have 18 kids in 5th grade. Some grades have even smaller class sizes. Our building was also renovated within the last 5 years. We are a Title I school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Level 2 special ed students are not counted in a class size total or class averages. The state only holds FCPS to a set of standards, not each individual school so there is no individual school accountability. ESL and FRM students have a much lower ratio of students to each classroom teacher than general ed or AAP students. These teachers are in addition to specialists for these children and are calculated by what FCPS calls a needs based staffing formula. Other schools with few ESL and FRM students have classes higher than the state max average and max class size limits. Some principals are better at working the current system than others and getting additional teachers, but regardless the system isn't working well for many schools and needs to be revamped. Detailed budget information including class size ratios is found in the approved budget book. http://www.fcps.edu/fs/budget/budgetdocuments.shtml

That's kind of the answer (non answer) we get- we are in Vienna, however, Mclean schools seem to get that "not over 30" and will get a new teacher.

McLean school parent here and this isn't true at our school, Franklin Sherman. It is the smallest elementary in FC but only has two teachers in 4th, 5th, and 6th grade. Each of those teachers then has 30-32 children in each of their classes, which is totally ridiculous!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Level 2 special ed students are not counted in a class size total or class averages. The state only holds FCPS to a set of standards, not each individual school so there is no individual school accountability. ESL and FRM students have a much lower ratio of students to each classroom teacher than general ed or AAP students. These teachers are in addition to specialists for these children and are calculated by what FCPS calls a needs based staffing formula. Other schools with few ESL and FRM students have classes higher than the state max average and max class size limits. Some principals are better at working the current system than others and getting additional teachers, but regardless the system isn't working well for many schools and needs to be revamped. Detailed budget information including class size ratios is found in the approved budget book. http://www.fcps.edu/fs/budget/budgetdocuments.shtml

That's kind of the answer (non answer) we get- we are in Vienna, however, Mclean schools seem to get that "not over 30" and will get a new teacher.

And we are at Wolftrap- geez, we are the least diverse place and extremely low everything from lunch subsidies, minorities and special needs.

Anonymous wrote:Level 2 special ed students are not counted in a class size total or class averages. The state only holds FCPS to a set of standards, not each individual school so there is no individual school accountability. ESL and FRM students have a much lower ratio of students to each classroom teacher than general ed or AAP students. These teachers are in addition to specialists for these children and are calculated by what FCPS calls a needs based staffing formula. Other schools with few ESL and FRM students have classes higher than the state max average and max class size limits. Some principals are better at working the current system than others and getting additional teachers, but regardless the system isn't working well for many schools and needs to be revamped. Detailed budget information including class size ratios is found in the approved budget book. http://www.fcps.edu/fs/budget/budgetdocuments.shtml

That's kind of the answer (non answer) we get- we are in Vienna, however, Mclean schools seem to get that "not over 30" and will get a new teacher.

Level 2 special ed students are not counted in a class size total or class averages. The state only holds FCPS to a set of standards, not each individual school so there is no individual school accountability. ESL and FRM students have a much lower ratio of students to each classroom teacher than general ed or AAP students. These teachers are in addition to specialists for these children and are calculated by what FCPS calls a needs based staffing formula. Other schools with few ESL and FRM students have classes higher than the state max average and max class size limits. Some principals are better at working the current system than others and getting additional teachers, but regardless the system isn't working well for many schools and needs to be revamped. Detailed budget information including class size ratios is found in the approved budget book. http://www.fcps.edu/fs/budget/budgetdocuments.shtml

My kids are in a school that typically abuses the "not over 30 kids" standard in class sizes grades 1-3. So- we are told that specialists etc. help count and so they are within standards. However, I talk to a teacher (7 years teaching) in another place near ours who says the minute a class gets over 30- they hire a new teacher. SO what is the real story? Why do we get the run around on all of this?