Honestly, I wouldn't engage in debating the past with your mother. I also would not try to diagnose your parents--focus on behavior, not labels. You can agree that different people remember events differently, but the problem is in the present--when you visit, they are only engaged for a few hours and then they are both back to paying attention to your father. They don't initiate phone calls. You feel uncomfortable witnessing your dad treating your mother unkindly (you can even avoid the word "abuse," but you can describe the mean things you've heard him say to her) and you don't like your children hearing the cruel things he says, either.

Then acknowledge that you can't make them change. If you mother truly wants to spend more time with her grandkids and she's not abusive, perhaps you can find ways to involve her without your dad. In any case, make it clear that these are the reasons you limit visits and you are going to continue to limit visits unless those things change. She'll probably try to tell you why your observations are wrong, but you've given her the information to make changes if she wants to. Tell her it's up to her whether she wants to make those changes.

Anonymous wrote:HI, OP here. I am wishing for someone to provide me with a solution to all of this but I suppose there isn't. My mom was saying things to me like, "I know that this family has problems [because she can sense that I and my sister don't like to be around my dad], I know you hate your father, but what can we do to make things better? What has to happen? What was so horrible about your childhood?" And when I respond with an example of my dad's abusive behavior, she says something like "Well, you have to acknowledge that everyone has their own version of things, and i am sure you realize that the way you remember it may not actually be the way it happened."

I'm 17:39.

Be factual. Say you have researched the issue and believe your father to have Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and her to have a co-dependent relationship with him, hence the sad fact that she will always enable him and will never adequately defend you. Say that children of a certain age are actually reliable recorders of facts, especially if all the children of the same family remember the same events and the way that event made them feel.

Finally, tell her that you do not want your children to be exposed to potential abuse.

Be firm, calm and assertive.

Anonymous wrote:HI, OP here. I am wishing for someone to provide me with a solution to all of this but I suppose there isn't. My mom was saying things to me like, "I know that this family has problems [because she can sense that I and my sister don't like to be around my dad], I know you hate your father, but what can we do to make things better? What has to happen? What was so horrible about your childhood?" And when I respond with an example of my dad's abusive behavior, she says something like "Well, you have to acknowledge that everyone has their own version of things, and i am sure you realize that the way you remember it may not actually be the way it happened."

Don't reward bad behavior. Both parents are in deep denial and enablers.

New Rules:
Father is not permitted near OP or her kids.
Mother only can visit.
If she doesn't accept these rules, it's her problem.

OP, why does your mother even know how often you're getting together with DH's family?

When your mother asks what she can do to make it better you can say "You can pay attention to the grandkids the WHOLE time we're visiting you, and not just the first half a day of the visit, and the same for Dad. Maybe that's more than you can do, which is fine, but we'll just plan shorter trips to see you."

I refuse to feel badly that I don't give in to other's shitty treatment of me or my family, or the guilt trips they lay out. Join me, won't you?

I sympathize, OP.
My parents have always done their best to isolate themselves from the world, which prevents them from making comparisons with others and realizing they're often irrational. Growing up, I was brought up to shun friends and family, which triggered my social anxiety.

Recently, even though I knew that politely telling my mother what I thought was not going to change her, I still told her anyway! It was cathartic, and after years of suffering it made me feel better. She thought I was crazy, of course. But now she cannot complain that I have not explained my opinions

The only thing that worked for me is distance - physical (a whole continent away) and emotional. When we visit, I try my best to not take the insults, un-constructive criticism and general nagging personally. It works for 10 days max, so I know not to stay longer than that!

HI, OP here. I am wishing for someone to provide me with a solution to all of this but I suppose there isn't. My mom was saying things to me like, "I know that this family has problems [because she can sense that I and my sister don't like to be around my dad], I know you hate your father, but what can we do to make things better? What has to happen? What was so horrible about your childhood?" And when I respond with an example of my dad's abusive behavior, she says something like "Well, you have to acknowledge that everyone has their own version of things, and i am sure you realize that the way you remember it may not actually be the way it happened."

OP, I don't know for sure but my first reaction is that it is pointless to try to convince your mom that she should behave differently or to try to get her to acknowledge the pain she and your father have caused you.

You should continue to focus on setting boundaries for yourself and your family and making it so spending time with your family is comfortable for you. What I found with my mom is that my learning to set boundaries with her actually improved my relationship with her. She couldn't control me anymore so I was able to see her as an anxious old woman for whom I had some compassion.

So what should you do when your mom asks about how to improve relationships? Can you think of something that you need in terms of a boundary that would make your interaction with them easier but doesn't a) require that you tell her she was a crappy mother or b) require that she be a different person entirely?

Ultimately the thing that is hard for adult children to accept is that we can't change our parents and we need to give up trying to change them which is why I think 17:04's strategy is the best. Take care of yourself and don't expect them to change. Things won't be perfect but they can be better.

Good luck!

You could be me, except my family dynamic also includes incest, which everyone has decided to sweep under the rug in the interest of "moving forward."

They're not going to change. You know that. You might feel momentarily victorious finally telling them what you think, but they won't agree with you and will just get defensive at best and hostile at worst.

Just do what you have to do. When they whine that they don't get to see you enough, say you're sorry but you're busy. When you do see them, make the visits short.

I stopped spending any holidays with my family over 20 years ago. They got used to it. Now they don't even ask.

And be glad you have ILs that are sane. I adore and am so grateful for mine.

This is a tough one, OP. My parents are similar in some respects to yours, I think. I can tell you that in the early years it broke my heart that they weren't more involved in our lives, and in the lives of my kids. I tried on several occasions to tell them how I felt, but it never really went anywhere. I left every conversation feeling like I was the one with "the problem" because they were unable to see the situation from my point of view. That hurt. A lot. In more recent years I keep my visits short, light, and my expectations of them minimal. I'm not sure if this is better than expecting something from them that they cannot seem to give, but it's where I've ended up. I've said goodbye to the fantasy that they can ever be the parents/grandparents I want them to be. Now I just try to see the good in them that exists and be content with that. Luckily I have other people in my life that are caring, attentive, plugged in emotionally. I lean on them and on myself for support.

My parents are kind of messed up. My dad is very selfish and abusive (mostly verbally, to mainly my mother but also to us kids when we were younger). My mother lacks self-esteem, and her world revolves around my dad. She was also a bit mean to us when we were kids. Neither parent is affectionate, and neither seems capable of forming healthy relationships (e.g., neither has any real friends). My parents never call. This is because my dad only cares about himself, and my mom only cares about my dad, so their energies are taken up (by my dad).

We rarely visit them, and when we do it's uncomfortable for me because watching my parents interact brings back bad childhood memories and I don't like being around them. It makes me uneasy and uncomfortable. They are nice to my children, but after the initial novelty has worn off (i.e., within half a day of arriving for the visit), my dad is back to caring about only himself, and my mom is back to caring about only my dad. Despite this, they often lament that we don't visit enough. They want the cute photos of them and their grandkids, to be able to show around and give the impression that they have this great relationship and that they are great grandparents; but the truth is that they don't really want to spend a whole lot of time with them. After a few hours, they're done. It's as if they like the picture-perfect idea of grandkids, but not the reality. Recently, my mother called me to complain that we hardly ever visit, but that we visit DH's family all the time (kind of true). She wanted to know why.

If you were me, would you lay it all out for my mom? (i.e., tell her that the truth is that they were shitty parents, that i don't feel comfortable around them, that they don't even spend a lot of time with the grandkids when we do visit, etc...of course, i'd try to phrase it all nicer than this). The few times before that we have touched on these topics, my mom seems surprised that I think that they were not good parents. I think it's because the dysfunction seems normal to her because it's how they are, and all she knows. She was asking me what would need to happen to improve relationships within our family. The reality is that my parents would have to make changes of which I don't think they're capable.
I know I rambled here - I'm sorry about that. The main question is: when someone is asking you what needs to happen to improve relations, and you know that the answer is change of which the parties involved aren't capable, how do you handle it?