Anonymous
Post 10/24/2012 10:36     Subject: DOJ exit opportunities
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Do you have kids?


Yes. Two kids, both under 5.


NP here. Know that if you choose the BigLaw option, the only way of getting ahead will be to not see your children for several years, at least not in the evenings and for much of the weekends - you may be able to work out some breakfast time. Assuming that you won't be happy with that, you will last two years tops and then try desperately to go government, and it will be very difficult, as government jobs are almost impossible to get at this point without at least 5 years BigLaw experience. You might jump to another firm, but you will find that one just as annoying. It will be a pretty miserable time.

But, yes, having it on your resume will help you if you really decide you want to be a partner. BigLaw views DOJ Honors hires as undisciplined and self-important. DOJ Honors throws you in but doesn't teach you to sacrifice all else to the job (not that DOJ doesn't have its own long hours). So, unless you have achieved a high position, generally political, you will have no shot at going back to BigLaw without prior experience. Then again, do you really want to be a partner? It isn't a great life either.
Anonymous
Post 10/24/2012 10:33     Subject: DOJ exit opportunities
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Do you have kids?


Yes. Two kids, both under 5.


To me it's a no brainer to take the govt job but diff strokes for diff folks (esp. if you are concerned with "cashing in")
Anonymous
Post 10/24/2012 10:25     Subject: DOJ exit opportunities
Anonymous wrote:Do you have kids?


Yes. Two kids, both under 5.
Anonymous
Post 10/24/2012 10:04     Subject: DOJ exit opportunities
Do you have kids?
Anonymous
Post 10/24/2012 09:57     Subject: Re:DOJ exit opportunities
op here. Surprised by the near consensus to take the sure thing Biglaw job now. I was strongly leaning the other way. I pitched it as solely a question of partnership prospects, and of course there is much more to the decision than that, but it seems people agree that DOJ Honors isn't experience firms generally think of as better experience than their associates get. That strikes me as demonstrably wrong but a rational position in terms of preserving the Biglaw institution.

Are there any "elite" litigating components/sections that might change the analysis? E.g., civil appellate for a future biglaw appellate gig or some fancy criminal trial section for biglaw white collar defense?

Anonymous
Post 10/24/2012 00:15     Subject: DOJ exit opportunities
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:23:33 is correct. I've done both big law and DOJ. Go to BigLaw now while you can. The reverse only happens if you have a particular specialty to sell back or are a big political player . . and the firm wants you back. The norm is to go BigLaw, hopefully make partner . . . then do a few years at an agency . . . and sometimes the firm will take you back. With the financial market being what it is, I would definitely go BigLaw and hang out there as long as you can. And save your pennies. Once you leave, you may never get back in.


How common is it for someone to make partner in biglaw and then leave for an agency? I have seen people who get to be seniors and feel like partnership is unattainable and then leave to get subject matter expertise; some come back in as partners and many don't. If you already make partner, what's the draw to leave professionally or monetarily? Or are you seeing partners leave for lifestyle/stability? Just curious.


I think mostly they take high level policy positions-- so it's a chance to be involved in interesting issues for a few years and then chances are either their old firm or another firm will be happy to have them back.

I would just add that just as you shouldn't assume that if you go govt that you can into biglaw later, you also shouldn't assume that if you go biglaw you can get into govt later.


True. Every gov't agency is flooded with resumes from biglaw and there are many biglaw associates and partners who think they will get in just based on their firm - clearly that isn't happening. As for biglaw, it is a very picky, traditional recruiting process; they are used to people who come in as summer associates and stay through partnership - that's how most of the partners made it; so they don't always give deference to gov't experience, even where they should, because it is not the "traditional" path. At least in DC you'll get a look from biglaw if you have gov't experience; in NYC, Boston etc. biglaw partners tend to assume you only went to the gov't - even something selective - because you couldn't land a private sector job.
Anonymous
Post 10/24/2012 00:03     Subject: DOJ exit opportunities
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:23:33 is correct. I've done both big law and DOJ. Go to BigLaw now while you can. The reverse only happens if you have a particular specialty to sell back or are a big political player . . and the firm wants you back. The norm is to go BigLaw, hopefully make partner . . . then do a few years at an agency . . . and sometimes the firm will take you back. With the financial market being what it is, I would definitely go BigLaw and hang out there as long as you can. And save your pennies. Once you leave, you may never get back in.


How common is it for someone to make partner in biglaw and then leave for an agency? I have seen people who get to be seniors and feel like partnership is unattainable and then leave to get subject matter expertise; some come back in as partners and many don't. If you already make partner, what's the draw to leave professionally or monetarily? Or are you seeing partners leave for lifestyle/stability? Just curious.


I think mostly they take high level policy positions-- so it's a chance to be involved in interesting issues for a few years and then chances are either their old firm or another firm will be happy to have them back.

I would just add that just as you shouldn't assume that if you go govt that you can into biglaw later, you also shouldn't assume that if you go biglaw you can get into govt later.
Anonymous
Post 10/23/2012 23:41     Subject: DOJ exit opportunities
Anonymous wrote:23:33 is correct. I've done both big law and DOJ. Go to BigLaw now while you can. The reverse only happens if you have a particular specialty to sell back or are a big political player . . and the firm wants you back. The norm is to go BigLaw, hopefully make partner . . . then do a few years at an agency . . . and sometimes the firm will take you back. With the financial market being what it is, I would definitely go BigLaw and hang out there as long as you can. And save your pennies. Once you leave, you may never get back in.


How common is it for someone to make partner in biglaw and then leave for an agency? I have seen people who get to be seniors and feel like partnership is unattainable and then leave to get subject matter expertise; some come back in as partners and many don't. If you already make partner, what's the draw to leave professionally or monetarily? Or are you seeing partners leave for lifestyle/stability? Just curious.
Anonymous
Post 10/23/2012 23:40     Subject: DOJ exit opportunities
Anonymous wrote:If your ultimate goal is BigLaw partnership, you should go work at BigLaw now. As a general rule, a few years at DOJ is not going to put you "ahead" on the partnership track. People who go straight from government to BigLaw partnership have generally practiced for at least 8-10 years minimum, and attained some sort of high profile position. And even so, many firms may still offer only a Counsel position. If you do 4 years at DOJ, you may get recruited by firms as a litigation associate, but you will be on equal footing with any fourth year lateral from another large firm. And frankly, you may, depending on what work you do at DOJ, be a much tougher sell than a typical fourth year lateral - your experience many not be particularly applicable, and some partners are going to question whether someone who comes from the government will have the necessary work ethic.
The more typical track is to start at BigLaw, get a good reputation, and then as a senior or mid-level associate, go work in some highly relevant government office (i.e Antitrust Division foran Antitrust Associate). That may allow you to leapfrog your career somewhat, though again it is no guaruntee.


I agree with this. You will no doubt get more actual litigating experience at DOJ, but early in your career the firm wants to know you are ok with things like billing hours, and working for different clients/partners. Later on, it gets more difficult to move from DOJ to firms because you can't bring any business. The most likely way to do it is a few years at the firm to establish some bona fides, then a few years in govt, then back at the firm.
Anonymous
Post 10/23/2012 23:39     Subject: DOJ exit opportunities
Anonymous wrote:If your ultimate goal is BigLaw partnership, you should go work at BigLaw now. As a general rule, a few years at DOJ is not going to put you "ahead" on the partnership track. People who go straight from government to BigLaw partnership have generally practiced for at least 8-10 years minimum, and attained some sort of high profile position. And even so, many firms may still offer only a Counsel position. If you do 4 years at DOJ, you may get recruited by firms as a litigation associate, but you will be on equal footing with any fourth year lateral from another large firm. And frankly, you may, depending on what work you do at DOJ, be a much tougher sell than a typical fourth year lateral - your experience many not be particularly applicable, and some partners are going to question whether someone who comes from the government will have the necessary work ethic.
The more typical track is to start at BigLaw, get a good reputation, and then as a senior or mid-level associate, go work in some highly relevant government office (i.e Antitrust Division foran Antitrust Associate). That may allow you to leapfrog your career somewhat, though again it is no guaruntee.


Agreed. I think DOJ Honors is common enough that it does not give you a huge leg up for partnership purposes. In fact, I have talked to former DOJ honors attys who are now biglaw midlevels who say that it took some effort for them to find a biglaw position and they didn't feel assured that they would get one; I know people who have worked to transition out of DOJ once they had familiies, needed to buy a house, build up savings etc. and were worried that biglaw would be unattainable. In contrast, biglaw midlevels can move between firms reasonably easily (before they get really senior). In order to get a leg up on partnership, I think you need to be coming from the gov't AND be a subject matter expert in some area that is really important to firms - Dodd Frank, antitrust etc. I'm not sure that 3-4 yrs in DOJ Honors gives you that, even though it probably gives you more trial experience than many biglaw senior partners.
Anonymous
Post 10/23/2012 23:38     Subject: DOJ exit opportunities
23:33 is correct. I've done both big law and DOJ. Go to BigLaw now while you can. The reverse only happens if you have a particular specialty to sell back or are a big political player . . and the firm wants you back. The norm is to go BigLaw, hopefully make partner . . . then do a few years at an agency . . . and sometimes the firm will take you back. With the financial market being what it is, I would definitely go BigLaw and hang out there as long as you can. And save your pennies. Once you leave, you may never get back in.
Anonymous
Post 10/23/2012 23:33     Subject: DOJ exit opportunities
If your ultimate goal is BigLaw partnership, you should go work at BigLaw now. As a general rule, a few years at DOJ is not going to put you "ahead" on the partnership track. People who go straight from government to BigLaw partnership have generally practiced for at least 8-10 years minimum, and attained some sort of high profile position. And even so, many firms may still offer only a Counsel position. If you do 4 years at DOJ, you may get recruited by firms as a litigation associate, but you will be on equal footing with any fourth year lateral from another large firm. And frankly, you may, depending on what work you do at DOJ, be a much tougher sell than a typical fourth year lateral - your experience many not be particularly applicable, and some partners are going to question whether someone who comes from the government will have the necessary work ethic.
The more typical track is to start at BigLaw, get a good reputation, and then as a senior or mid-level associate, go work in some highly relevant government office (i.e Antitrust Division foran Antitrust Associate). That may allow you to leapfrog your career somewhat, though again it is no guaruntee.
Anonymous
Post 10/23/2012 22:29     Subject: DOJ exit opportunities
Though it's hard - think about it in terms of substantive experience, not partnership. The experience is what gives you options down the road - whether it's partnership at your current firm, a different firm, in-house, a policy position etc. Do you think you'd get better trial experience at DOJ or as a biglaw junior? (I think the answer is obvious.)

Partnership is such a long and tenuous process that you can't plan for it so early. Even if you were at DOJ for 4 yrs and then went biglaw, that is not a guarantee that you'd make partner in year 8-9 -- it depends on who you end up working for, the state of the firm's business, your business generating potential, and frankly just the politics. There could be chosen favorites who have been "in" for years or for some hot-shot lateral that comes in over you etc. Don't short-change yourself out of experience because of a hope of partnership years from now. Of course, if it's a money issue, biglaw is the way to go.
Anonymous
Post 10/23/2012 22:04     Subject: DOJ exit opportunities
I don't think DOJ Honors will have any meaningful impact (positive or negative) on your ability to make partner down the road. When you're a senior associate, people will evaluate your legal skills, your responsibility, your potential to bring in business, and the weight your rabbi commands; those are the factors that will determine whether you make partner or not.

DOJ may give you trial experience, which could help your climb at BigLaw, but that's just the start of the climb. If you're looking at a highly desirable BigLaw position, I'd take it now. But if you're looking at a mediocre BigLaw position, then go with DOJ and hope to parlay that into a better BigLaw job later.
Anonymous
Post 10/23/2012 21:51     Subject: DOJ exit opportunities
This board seems to have a lot of collective knowledge about DOJ. I am a law clerk choosing between DOJ Honors and Biglaw. The previous discussions of the family friendliness of both of these options were great. Right now I'm trying to figure out how choosing DOJ would impact my Biglaw opportunities down the road, and I have heard conflicting info about this. If I end up in a litigating component known for going to trial fairly often (certainly more often than biglaw), do people often leave those kinds of positions for firms? After how many years? And what kind of firms do they often end up at? I have been assuming that the experience would be more valuable than the same number of years at a firm professionally, but now I'm wondering whether it would actually increase my chances at partnership? I'm willing to take a short term salary hit if I know I'm getting valuable experience and can bring in serious money later. But if I'm actually decreasing my chances at cashing out successfully, that's a problem.