neither candidate has a detailed and specific plan and thats scary.

both of them focus their plans on taxes (whether cutting or increasing) and somehow magically having revenue to do things based on that idea.

its almost philosophical. does cutting or raising taxes create the revenue to grow the economy and create ability to spend more? thats the question voters have to decide

Or I'll create 12 million jobs but I can't tell you how.

Or I'll reduce tax rates and pay for it by eliminating deductions but I won't tell you which ones.

Or I'll make sure you can health coverage with a pre-existing condition even though my plan specifically doesn't do that.

Or I'll cut the deficit by cutting taxes which has been proven not to grow the economy but I'll just ignore that fact.

Which lie...I'll be the most transperant in history or I'll cut the deficit in half?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are lies, damned lies and statistics. Whether or not something is a "lie" depends upon the approach you take to the facts. Prime example, our unemployment statistics are manipulated to look better than they are by not counting those who have quit looking for work. You can cite either number and still have stated the facts--one is the unemployment statistic and the other is the real unemployment statistic. Neither answer is wrong it is just a different spin.

Except... that is how unemployment statistics have been counted for a VERY LONG TIME. When you are taking the generally accepted approach it's not "spin," it's spin when someone decides that the generally accepted approach is not accurate because they don't like the guy in office, not because they are looking for a more accurate figure.

Right and that's the number compared to before the recession. You would have to include those who had quit looking in the pre-recession numbers too. Otherwise, you are not comparing the same stats.

Anonymous wrote:There are lies, damned lies and statistics. Whether or not something is a "lie" depends upon the approach you take to the facts. Prime example, our unemployment statistics are manipulated to look better than they are by not counting those who have quit looking for work. You can cite either number and still have stated the facts--one is the unemployment statistic and the other is the real unemployment statistic. Neither answer is wrong it is just a different spin.

Except... that is how unemployment statistics have been counted for a VERY LONG TIME. When you are taking the generally accepted approach it's not "spin," it's spin when someone decides that the generally accepted approach is not accurate because they don't like the guy in office, not because they are looking for a more accurate figure.

Romney said he wouldn't cut taxes on the rich and then said he would -- all in less than 90 minutes. How do you call that admirable?

There are lies, damned lies and statistics. Whether or not something is a "lie" depends upon the approach you take to the facts. Prime example, our unemployment statistics are manipulated to look better than they are by not counting those who have quit looking for work. You can cite either number and still have stated the facts--one is the unemployment statistic and the other is the real unemployment statistic. Neither answer is wrong it is just a different spin.

Anonymous wrote:Have you ever had a discussion or argument with someone who you know is lying? It has to be one of the most frustrating exercises possible. Obama tried to call Romney out on his lies but if you do that too much you end up looking like a whiner. The whole Romney/Ryan campaign is built on lies, deception, and misdirection - from the "you didn't build that" attack to Ryan's convention speech to the 1990's video of Obama discussing "redistribution". And they'll continue to lie because the media refuses to point it out, instead focusing on how "passionate" and "in control" Romney was.

I'm very sad today. Last night's debate was the epitome of style over substance when there are some very real, important issues that need to be addressed - democracy was damaged. But go ahead and elect Romney - I'm in the top 1% so I can afford good healthcare, don't need to worry about getting medicare or SS and my taxes will go down.

McCain, is that you?

I must admit it was an outstanding presentation by an unscrupulous con man, which contradicted many of the candidate's views and positions that he held as late as last week, all resting on blatant lies and misrepresentation. He deserves some kind of prize, just not the White House.

He reminds of a used car salesman that will say anything at anytime.

you know how you conter not looking like a whiner? present an alternative plan/proposal that is just as substantive or even more and let that do the talking.

if everyone is lying than its a draw.

i think romney killed obama on the tax question and i believe the romney tax plan will bury little middle class old me.

romney kept hitting on lowering taxes for everyone and yes obama countered (correctly) and did get to a point where he (obama) was repeating himself but all that could have been solved if he laid out how his tax plan helps the little guy more. drop a 47% reference (or imply it), break down your plan or something. obama just failed on that.

i thought to myself that romney is actually making his plan sound reasonable and thats a problem cause most of us (dems) know its a bunch of bullshit.

Have you ever had a discussion or argument with someone who you know is lying? It has to be one of the most frustrating exercises possible. Obama tried to call Romney out on his lies but if you do that too much you end up looking like a whiner. The whole Romney/Ryan campaign is built on lies, deception, and misdirection - from the "you didn't build that" attack to Ryan's convention speech to the 1990's video of Obama discussing "redistribution". And they'll continue to lie because the media refuses to point it out, instead focusing on how "passionate" and "in control" Romney was.

I'm very sad today. Last night's debate was the epitome of style over substance when there are some very real, important issues that need to be addressed - democracy was damaged. But go ahead and elect Romney - I'm in the top 1% so I can afford good healthcare, don't need to worry about getting medicare or SS and my taxes will go down.

if romney told the truth, would that have changed your mind about voting for him?

people are stuck in looking at things through their little partisan worlds. these debates arent for us. romney could have laid out the most specific and truthful plan on earth and that wouldnt get me to vote for him.

this is all about style and romney won. had obama push backed even just a little more, romney's entire performance would have been seen as bullying and too agressive. instead, romney appeared confident and firm about his positions.

these debates are for low informed and independent voters. whatever candidates comes off the best is the winner. the lies and half truths being said are almost irrelevant unless is completely and utterly wrong.

so sure, romney lied and flipped flopped on prior positions but it makes no difference since he came off more competent than obama.

it would have only taken obama to find it in him to engage romney just a little bit more to have romney look confrontational and too aggressive last night and obama dropped the ball. lahrer was so bad that disrespecting him means nothing. have that and seeming pushy towards obama and the entire dynamic and opinion of last night changes.

Obama got hit by a truck, lies? they both lied. Obama lost because he was shell shocked, he was nodding in agreement the entire debate until the end when he was looking at someone off to the side coaching him.

He needed to come back as strong as Romney came across and he didn't.

Once again, Romney will say anything to win. Last night, he lied about the cost of his proposed tax cut, whether his health plan covers pre-existing conditions, the OMFG "Death Panels" and more:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-first-debate-mitt-romneys-five-biggest-lies-20121004

It's no wonder Obama lost the debate -- he was up against someone who can't stick to his position for 5 minutes.