Anonymous
Post 08/02/2012 12:00     Subject: Re:In which ancient societies (other than Greece) was homosexuality accepted?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Interestingly, neither of the prior PPs is answering the question. There is no doubt that marriage has taken on various forms across the thousands of years and thousands of world cultures with many different constructs and things permitted and not-permitted. The OP's question is how many times and when and where before today's current push has marriage taken on the form of that between two individuals of the same sex?


So your point is that the definition of marriage has evolved over the centuries, but it must stop evolving now?


No. My point is that those answer continue to deflect the question, as does your answer. I personally am against redefining marriage to include same-sex marriages. To my knowledge there are no (or at best a tiny handful) of cultures over the thousands and thousands of years of civilization that including same-sex marriage in their definition of marriage. Something inside of me says that if all of humankind in all of human history has limited marriage to between men and women, then there is something fundamental about the concept of marriage that crosses all of these boundaries.


Ancient cultures routinely practiced pologamy. Does that mean you feel we should embrace that widely accepted definition of marriage, since it was so popular way back when?

Most ancient cultures didn't allow women to own property or participate in government. Should we revoke the 14th and 19th amendments?

Better toss the 13th amendment, too. Plenty of ancient cultural support for slavery.
Anonymous
Post 08/02/2012 11:46     Subject: Re:In which ancient societies (other than Greece) was homosexuality accepted?
Anonymous wrote:

No. My point is that those answer continue to deflect the question, as does your answer. I personally am against redefining marriage to include same-sex marriages. To my knowledge there are no (or at best a tiny handful) of cultures over the thousands and thousands of years of civilization that including same-sex marriage in their definition of marriage. Something inside of me says that if all of humankind in all of human history has limited marriage to between men and women, then there is something fundamental about the concept of marriage that crosses all of these boundaries.

Not the OP or her friend, but back to her question if there is anyone who can provide an answer that is actually an answer instead of being argumentative of the right to even ask the question.


If this is just about how many places have recognized gay marriage then I am afraid you are going to lose this argument eventually.

Argentina, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Iceland, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, South Africa, and Sweden recognize gay marriage. The UK, France, and many others are considering doing so. It is just a matter of time. Of course, it may never happen in places like Saudi Arabia, but then women aren't allowed to drive there either.
Anonymous
Post 08/02/2012 11:43     Subject: In which ancient societies (other than Greece) was homosexuality accepted?
I should add that between them the Celts, Romans, Greeks and Persians covered most of the known world, and all tolerated homosexuality.
Anonymous
Post 08/02/2012 11:41     Subject: In which ancient societies (other than Greece) was homosexuality accepted?
Anonymous wrote:The Celts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts#Gender_and_sexual_norms
According to Aristotle, most "belligerent nations" were strongly influenced by their women, but the Celts were unusual because their men openly preferred male lovers (Politics II 1269b).[73] H. D. Rankin in Celts and the Classical World notes that "Athenaeus echoes this comment (603a) and so does Ammianus (30.9). It seems to be the general opinion of antiquity."[74]

Also the Persians.


Lovers.
Could those lovers marry in Celtic society?
Anonymous
Post 08/02/2012 11:40     Subject: In which ancient societies (other than Greece) was homosexuality accepted?
The Celts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts#Gender_and_sexual_norms
According to Aristotle, most "belligerent nations" were strongly influenced by their women, but the Celts were unusual because their men openly preferred male lovers (Politics II 1269b).[73] H. D. Rankin in Celts and the Classical World notes that "Athenaeus echoes this comment (603a) and so does Ammianus (30.9). It seems to be the general opinion of antiquity."[74]

Also the Persians.
Anonymous
Post 08/02/2012 11:39     Subject: In which ancient societies (other than Greece) was homosexuality accepted?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I have a fb friend who has started quite a debate over gay marriage. Before I jump in, I want to get my facts straight. Her argument is that gay marriage is not natural because it has never been permitted in other societies. This may be true, but I'm sure that previous non Judeo/Christian societies must have had a much more tolerant attitude toward homosexual/bisexual relations. Problem is, I can't think of any other than the Greeks. Please help!


Marriage, period, is not "natural."


Maybe the more recent institutional form of marriage is not natural, but haven't all societies been constructed so that people who produce offspring together are expected to be bound together in some significant way?
Anonymous
Post 08/02/2012 11:39     Subject: Re:In which ancient societies (other than Greece) was homosexuality accepted?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Interestingly, neither of the prior PPs is answering the question. There is no doubt that marriage has taken on various forms across the thousands of years and thousands of world cultures with many different constructs and things permitted and not-permitted. The OP's question is how many times and when and where before today's current push has marriage taken on the form of that between two individuals of the same sex?


So your point is that the definition of marriage has evolved over the centuries, but it must stop evolving now?


No. My point is that those answer continue to deflect the question, as does your answer. I personally am against redefining marriage to include same-sex marriages. To my knowledge there are no (or at best a tiny handful) of cultures over the thousands and thousands of years of civilization that including same-sex marriage in their definition of marriage. Something inside of me says that if all of humankind in all of human history has limited marriage to between men and women, then there is something fundamental about the concept of marriage that crosses all of these boundaries.

Not the OP or her friend, but back to her question if there is anyone who can provide an answer that is actually an answer instead of being argumentative of the right to even ask the question.
Anonymous
Post 08/02/2012 11:35     Subject: In which ancient societies (other than Greece) was homosexuality accepted?
Anonymous wrote:I have a fb friend who has started quite a debate over gay marriage. Before I jump in, I want to get my facts straight. Her argument is that gay marriage is not natural because it has never been permitted in other societies. This may be true, but I'm sure that previous non Judeo/Christian societies must have had a much more tolerant attitude toward homosexual/bisexual relations. Problem is, I can't think of any other than the Greeks. Please help!


Marriage, period, is not "natural."
Anonymous
Post 08/02/2012 11:17     Subject: Re:In which ancient societies (other than Greece) was homosexuality accepted?
Anonymous wrote:Interestingly, neither of the prior PPs is answering the question. There is no doubt that marriage has taken on various forms across the thousands of years and thousands of world cultures with many different constructs and things permitted and not-permitted. The OP's question is how many times and when and where before today's current push has marriage taken on the form of that between two individuals of the same sex?


So your point is that the definition of marriage has evolved over the centuries, but it must stop evolving now?
Anonymous
Post 08/02/2012 11:10     Subject: In which ancient societies (other than Greece) was homosexuality accepted?
Your friend is wrong on the basic point that all Christians believe homosexuality is a problem. Therefore, I doubt you will be able to get her to change her opinion. Save your energy.
Anonymous
Post 08/02/2012 11:03     Subject: Re:In which ancient societies (other than Greece) was homosexuality accepted?
Interestingly, neither of the prior PPs is answering the question. There is no doubt that marriage has taken on various forms across the thousands of years and thousands of world cultures with many different constructs and things permitted and not-permitted. The OP's question is how many times and when and where before today's current push has marriage taken on the form of that between two individuals of the same sex?
Anonymous
Post 08/02/2012 10:40     Subject: Re:In which ancient societies (other than Greece) was homosexuality accepted?
You can also point to the incredibly short history of monogamous marriage.

Most ancient cultures that I'm aware of allowed men multiple wives and concubines. So I'm sure she's ok with that.
Anonymous
Post 08/02/2012 07:53     Subject: In which ancient societies (other than Greece) was homosexuality accepted?
Does it matter? Ask her if she, as a woman, would want women held to the same standard. Women have been castigated and oppressed for years in societies around the world. That doesn't make it "natural" or the best thing for society - let alone something we ought to do now.

Look, you aren't going to win this one. She's having an emotional reaction and facts just won't help. You won't change her mind with logic. Try and find a way to connect with her emotions and you might stand a chance. Otherwise, leave it alone.
Anonymous
Post 08/02/2012 07:49     Subject: In which ancient societies (other than Greece) was homosexuality accepted?
First of all, Greece was not a tiny country. This is what we are talking about: http://www.gods-word-first.org/Images/greek-empire-map.gif

Second, homosexuality was openly permitted in ancient rome. That's pretty much all of western civilization at the time: http://www.hyperhistory.com/online_n2/images_n2/roman_emp.gif

For a more global perspective:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome

For a perspective in the animal kingdom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

So basically homosexuality is everywhere.
Anonymous
Post 08/02/2012 07:40     Subject: In which ancient societies (other than Greece) was homosexuality accepted?
I have a fb friend who has started quite a debate over gay marriage. Before I jump in, I want to get my facts straight. Her argument is that gay marriage is not natural because it has never been permitted in other societies. This may be true, but I'm sure that previous non Judeo/Christian societies must have had a much more tolerant attitude toward homosexual/bisexual relations. Problem is, I can't think of any other than the Greeks. Please help!