I don't have experience with this issue but here is what I would try.

1) Have a chat with her, telling her that her behaviors lately has been unacceptable and give her some specific example, act it our if needed (my 4 yo finds it funny when I show her her whining). That she is becoming a big girl and you want to treat her as a big girl but she needs to act as a big girl. That you will help in this process.

2) Have a chart with columns some specific behaviors that you want to correct: ex: not slamming the door, no saying I hate, getting dressed without complaining,....
She can put the stickers in the column and get rewarded at the end of the day for having a full row (or all but one) by maybe an extra book with just you, or a walk alone, ... whatever reward you like that involves just a little one-on-one time with one of you.

3) This is to try to cut the negative. To encourage good behaviors, I would have a (small) vase and some beads/bottle caps/coins/... and put one of them in the vase each time she does generous things/is particularly polite towards you or her sister. Once it is full, we do a party with her favorite dinner, dress up and some music.

I agree with posters about family therapy. words like "it's affecting my marriage" and "terrified" are not good for anyone--short or long term.

You do not mention if DD is in preschool, how many days a week, etc. If she isn't going, you need to start, to give yourself a break and her a break from the family dynamic. If she is going and she likes it, you might consider increasing her hours there.

You also mention her behavior got worse when she began to sleep less. I'd check out her room for light (especially with the longer days) and consider changes in window treatment to make her room easier for her to sleep. I'd get a white noise machine for her room. I'd check the temperature of her room and make whatever changes might help (fan?) keep it comfortable. I'd definitely try to get her more sleep, because whatever is frustrating her (and you) is much much worse if she isn't getting enough sleep.

Finally, I think you and your DH need to consider spending some one on one time with your DD. Can you take a class with her? Can he have a regular outing with her? Even though she's going through a rough patch, you want to spend some time with her affirming your love for her and doing something "special" that is just hers.

GL. sounds very tough. Hang in.

Consequences, consequences, consequences. When I started consistently enforcing consequences with my 4 yr old DS, it made all the difference. You may be dealing with more than I did, but it's worth a shot. It also made parenting easier for me.

The key is to figure out what they really care about and use that as a lever.

Examples:
** If you come downstairs after bedtime, you lose a stuffed animal. It only took one night of taking an animal (which resulted in a huge crying fit but I toughed it out) and he's stayed in his room at bedtime for two months.

** If you don't hold hands while crossing the street, no afternoon tv show.

The relationship with her sibling is one for you to maybe try consequences on.

I save the consequences for the big things and try to make the other things more fun. E.g. "There's no way you can get into your carseat before I put my purse in the front seat. That would just be too fast. No one can be that fast!!" I've been doing that for three months and the excitement for him still hasn't worn off!

Good luck and try to get some time for yourself too!

Anonymous wrote:Have you tried a more playful approach? My 4 year old DD sounds like yours, maybe a little less extreme. I've found that if I talk like her favorite character, she becomes a better listener. I'm still firm, she gets consequences for misbehavor etc. But she does seem to behave better when I try to get into her playful imagination instead of me constantly enforcing the rules.

Yes, this does work sometimes if her mood is halfway decent to begin with. Sometimes she'll let this fly, other times no.

The behavioral specialist we are seeing is starting "play therapy" with her this week. I honestly don't see how this will help, since she will no doubt cooperate perfectly for the therapist. They have said we will do family therapy as well, but I'm not sure when. The wheels seem to be moving at a really slow pace.

Anonymous wrote:Around that time, my older DD took a left turn and became this miserable uncooperative being. I would stand in front of a moving train for this child, but I literally do not like being around her. She makes life completely miserable for her dad, her little sister and me. Her most common statements are "I don't want to!!" or "I hate that!" She never wants the baby in her room for even a second and will literally slam the door in her face. She doesn't want to share anything ever, in fact doesn't even want her sister to LOOK at her sometimes. She is completely uncooperative with: getting dressed, going to the potty when it wasn't her idea (ie: if its bedtime or we're leaving the house), getting undressed, getting in carseat, getting on sunscreen, picking up toys, coming to the meal table.

You are not permissive...except you allow your 4 yr old to slam the door on her baby sister?

There should either be no door for her to slam or something to block the door so she can not in fact close it all the way (they sell them in stores in the baby proofing aisle)

Every single time she says "I don't want to", you get down in her face, look her in the eye and say very firmly "Do <insert action> now" Use less words. Use less explanation. You need to be in control because your DD is not capable of it. She needs someone to help her regulate herself.

Look into sensory processing issues.

also - have you looked at her diet? I have a friend who removed food dyes from diet and it made a HUGE difference in behavior. (I do not know why -but Red is the big one which is in Jelly, some cereals, jello etc.)

I'm going to echo a pp suggestion for getting family therapy. It sounds like your family dynamic is really in trouble and at this point I'd certainly call in professionals. I don't think she has ODD or any other developmental disorder only because she seems fine in other settings such as school - but perhaps I'm reading too much into what you wrote. But there is definitely something about your family life that is making your daughter need excessive control. She could really benefit from some therapy (play-based) to help her deal with her emotions. Good luck!

Family therapy.

Your DD's difficulties are now affecting the entire family, and my guess is that the family's needs and responses are in turn triggering her further, however reasonable they may be. If it were me, I would start wtih a whole family "system" approach, and see where it goes.

Maybe you could start a new thread asking for recommendations for good family therapists in your area. GL.

Take a deep breath. I have had very similar experiences.

I would recommend a parenting class that is not a one time class but a series so you can learn something, try it out, get feedback, add on to it, talk to others about how it is working etc.

I personally lhave experience with the 1 day class at Parenting Playgroups - and if it would have worked for us, I would have done the 8 week session. Here is a link:
http://parentingplaygroups.com/

Call them and see if there are short term things they can help you with.

Through our daycare, they have had some sessions sponsored facilitated by PEP. I liked these as well.


Just an FYI - my daughter is similar. When the baby was an infant it was not an issue, it was when he started moving around. She was very angery. There were many times I needed to step away. Or leave her to my husband b/c of the battles.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
She is completely uncooperative with: getting dressed, going to the potty when it wasn't her idea (ie: if its bedtime or we're leaving the house), getting undressed, getting in carseat, getting on sunscreen, picking up toys, coming to the meal table.

Getting Dressed - Give her 2 choices. She can decide between the two, or you can make the choice for her.

Going Potty - Give her 2 choices - Either she goes potty or she gets a diaper.

Picking up Toys - Either she picks them up, or you do and they go away.

Table to Eat - Either she comes to the table to eat or she doesn't eat. She won't go hungry, she'll most likely miss a meal (or two if she's really stubborn).


You are the parent, you've given her FAR too much control. She's 4. Yes she should be given the privilege of making some decisions, but ultimately you are the parent - you have final say.

OP here. We do all of these things (except offering her a diaper) and have for a long time. These daily tasks obviously do get done, it is just a battle every.single.time. and it sucks.


And yes, to the other PP, we have tried talking to her about what upsets her. She doesn't really seem to know. She is much better 1 on 1 with either me or her dad. But even at 4 years old, she burst into tears if a stranger pushes the elevator call button instead of her. She has been doing that for over 2 years now, despite the fact that we completely ignore it or tell her that she can't always do it.

Have you tried a more playful approach? My 4 year old DD sounds like yours, maybe a little less extreme. I've found that if I talk like her favorite character, she becomes a better listener. I'm still firm, she gets consequences for misbehavor etc. But she does seem to behave better when I try to get into her playful imagination instead of me constantly enforcing the rules.

Anonymous wrote:
She is completely uncooperative with: getting dressed, going to the potty when it wasn't her idea (ie: if its bedtime or we're leaving the house), getting undressed, getting in carseat, getting on sunscreen, picking up toys, coming to the meal table.

Getting Dressed - Give her 2 choices. She can decide between the two, or you can make the choice for her.

Going Potty - Give her 2 choices - Either she goes potty or she gets a diaper.

Picking up Toys - Either she picks them up, or you do and they go away.

Table to Eat - Either she comes to the table to eat or she doesn't eat. She won't go hungry, she'll most likely miss a meal (or two if she's really stubborn).


You are the parent, you've given her FAR too much control. She's 4. Yes she should be given the privilege of making some decisions, but ultimately you are the parent - you have final say.

Have you considered seeing a family therapist who can evaluate her and your family dynamic? It might be that something you guys are doing but not realizing are contributing to her behavior. Also, the fact that you say you all walk on eggshells and that you wake up miserable every day sounds like everyone needs some help at this point.

Have you talked to her ped? Is it possible that she has any health issues that might be problematic?

This also seems like a very miserable way for her to live too - always in this state of being irritable and emotionally and behaviorally unregulated.

If you take her and do something alone with her, is she any better?

Of all the approaches you have tried - what has she responded the best too (even if it didn't give you the results you hoped for).

Can she tell you at all what is different between school and home? What would make home more like school?

It sounds more like an oppositional defiance disorder than ADD or ASD but the fact it is only in one setting is interesting.

How is she in community activities - church, sports, arts etc...? Does she manage there?

I have posted about my DD several times before, so some of this may sound familiar. But I am at the bottom of the barrel of ideas, so I am on here shamelessly begging for help.

4 years ago my sweet perfect first child was born. She was a dream baby in every way, sleeping well, nursing well, so happy all the time. As she grew into a toddler it was clear she had opinions of her own, but still super sweet and easy going, fun loving. Around 2.5 years old, her opinions really starting digging in. Most noteably, we starting having major issues with what she would/would not wear. Through all of this, we did the "right" things. Ignoring tantrums, not engaging, redirecting her (very rare) misbehaviors. When she was 3 her sister was born and we braced ourselves. But the first 9 months were almost completely problem free. We thought we'd dodged the bullet.

At 3.5 she dropped her nap for good, but still slept well at night and a few months before her 4th birthday, she started sleeping a lot less at night (9.5-10 hours instead of 11 or 12.) and around the same time her sister turned 1, started walking and having opinions of her own.

Around that time, my older DD took a left turn and became this miserable uncooperative being. I would stand in front of a moving train for this child, but I literally do not like being around her. She makes life completely miserable for her dad, her little sister and me. Her most common statements are "I don't want to!!" or "I hate that!" She never wants the baby in her room for even a second and will literally slam the door in her face. She doesn't want to share anything ever, in fact doesn't even want her sister to LOOK at her sometimes.

She is completely uncooperative with: getting dressed, going to the potty when it wasn't her idea (ie: if its bedtime or we're leaving the house), getting undressed, getting in carseat, getting on sunscreen, picking up toys, coming to the meal table.

She has moments of seeming good moods where she is sweet to us and her sister, but they are short-lived and certainly on her terms. The whole family walks on eggshells constantly. There is no such thing as a good day - a good couple hours maybe, but never a whole day. Every day brings angry yelling fits AND inconsolable crying meltdowns. She just cannot cope with the daily tasks of life or any sort of disappointment whatsoever. Despite all of this, she is a sweet child who is an angel at school and around most other people (except her closest relatives like my mom and my sister). She has lots of friends and lots of fun...just not with her immediate family.


Despite what many of you are thinking, we are not bad parents!! We are not permissive, nor are we "yellers" (not saying we've never raised our voices, but as a general rule we remain calm.) We have rules that are consistently enforced, usually at a great cost to ourselves and the peace of the rest of the family. All of the books and experts reassure us that we simply need to be consistent and follow through and we DO! It doesn't make any difference.

I have earnestly read & tried:'

1-2-3 magic
Raising your spirited child
Setting Limits with your strong willed child
The Explosive Child
Positive Discipline

I honestly haven't seen any measurable difference with any of these. Most recently, we took her for an evaluation at a behavioral specialist and are awaiting the results/recommendations. But I'm not confident they are going to have any answers. Their evaluation was mostly based on IQ and social awareness, plus a long behavior questionnaire that I filled out. Everything seems geared toward either ASD or ADD/ADHD and I don't thin any of those things are our problem. I'm not sticking my head in the sand - I KNOW there is a real problem, I just don't think its one of those common catch-alls.

I don't know where to turn next! A "parenting expert"? Something like PEP? (although that is based on the positive discipline book which I've already read and tried) Someone to come into our house on a 1-on-1 basis?

I am miserable every single morning when I wake up. Its affecting my marriage and my relationship with both of my children. I'm concerned about my younger child, and also TERRIFIED that whatever this is going to "stick" with my older child and she will never be truly happy and as a result will make us all miserable forever. I know that sounds super doom and gloom, but its the kind of stuff that runs through my head when I can't fall asleep at night.

Sorry for the novel...I'm just so desperate and don't know where to turn!