Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:13:09 LIVID here. Yes,the story is true, at least that is the exact story that my friend told me. Do I know for certain that she did an exhaustive search in VA? No, I know that her OB wouldn't do it and told her that none of the doctors in the practice would either because she was past 20 weeks of gestation. They suggested she go into DC.

As to your question is the anti-abortion lobby so powerful in VA? The personhood amendment has passed in the VA house and the ultrasound law will soon by on the way to the governor's desk.

As far as insurance goes, there are things that I don't necessarily want to pay for. Insulin and other meds for obese type 2 diabetes, lung cancer treatments for smokers. I'm not saying that I actually object to these treatments, but you get the idea. Insurance is a collective. You pay in and are guaranteed certain coverage regardless of whether you use it or not. Your rates may go up because your neighbor has lots of health issues, but I don't get to choose which health issues of my neighbor gets covered. The same issue with our taxes. I pay in but I don't get to choose where my money goes.

PP, thanks for the shout out. I'm not that special. I got caught in an unfair situation and decided to do something about it. I continue to volunteer in this area because I feel passionately about women's reproductive rights.

I'm surprised to learn that such an involved person in this matter you didn't know that after 20 weeks, in VA at least, you must deliver the baby instead of getting a D&C.

How do you deliver a dead fetus? If this is true then the woman should have gone to the media and report on how stupid the pro-life stance be.

LIVID- you are amazing. I wish we were friends. Any suggestions on how some of us can get involved?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:13:09 LIVID here. Yes,the story is true, at least that is the exact story that my friend told me. Do I know for certain that she did an exhaustive search in VA? No, I know that her OB wouldn't do it and told her that none of the doctors in the practice would either because she was past 20 weeks of gestation. They suggested she go into DC.

As to your question is the anti-abortion lobby so powerful in VA? The personhood amendment has passed in the VA house and the ultrasound law will soon by on the way to the governor's desk.

As far as insurance goes, there are things that I don't necessarily want to pay for. Insulin and other meds for obese type 2 diabetes, lung cancer treatments for smokers. I'm not saying that I actually object to these treatments, but you get the idea. Insurance is a collective. You pay in and are guaranteed certain coverage regardless of whether you use it or not. Your rates may go up because your neighbor has lots of health issues, but I don't get to choose which health issues of my neighbor gets covered. The same issue with our taxes. I pay in but I don't get to choose where my money goes.

PP, thanks for the shout out. I'm not that special. I got caught in an unfair situation and decided to do something about it. I continue to volunteer in this area because I feel passionately about women's reproductive rights.

I'm surprised to learn that such an involved person in this matter you didn't know that after 20 weeks, in VA at least, you must deliver the baby instead of getting a D&C.

Where does she say she didn't know?

LIVID here. I never said I wasn't aware of Virginia's laws. I was just giving the example of the horrific unintended consequences of these laws. I personally think that making a woman go through labor at 20 weeks to deliver a baby that died at 18 weeks is cruel. I also don't think that it is obvious that doctors would not be allowed to perform a D&E on a DEAD fetus at 18 weeks (discovered at 20). It is different than performing a D&E at 20 weeks for a fetal abnormality, at least it is in my mind.

Anonymous wrote:13:09 LIVID here. Yes,the story is true, at least that is the exact story that my friend told me. Do I know for certain that she did an exhaustive search in VA? No, I know that her OB wouldn't do it and told her that none of the doctors in the practice would either because she was past 20 weeks of gestation. They suggested she go into DC.

As to your question is the anti-abortion lobby so powerful in VA? The personhood amendment has passed in the VA house and the ultrasound law will soon by on the way to the governor's desk.

As far as insurance goes, there are things that I don't necessarily want to pay for. Insulin and other meds for obese type 2 diabetes, lung cancer treatments for smokers. I'm not saying that I actually object to these treatments, but you get the idea. Insurance is a collective. You pay in and are guaranteed certain coverage regardless of whether you use it or not. Your rates may go up because your neighbor has lots of health issues, but I don't get to choose which health issues of my neighbor gets covered. The same issue with our taxes. I pay in but I don't get to choose where my money goes.

PP, thanks for the shout out. I'm not that special. I got caught in an unfair situation and decided to do something about it. I continue to volunteer in this area because I feel passionately about women's reproductive rights.

I'm surprised to learn that such an involved person in this matter you didn't know that after 20 weeks, in VA at least, you must deliver the baby instead of getting a D&C.

13:09 LIVID here. Yes,the story is true, at least that is the exact story that my friend told me. Do I know for certain that she did an exhaustive search in VA? No, I know that her OB wouldn't do it and told her that none of the doctors in the practice would either because she was past 20 weeks of gestation. They suggested she go into DC.

As to your question is the anti-abortion lobby so powerful in VA? The personhood amendment has passed in the VA house and the ultrasound law will soon by on the way to the governor's desk.

As far as insurance goes, there are things that I don't necessarily want to pay for. Insulin and other meds for obese type 2 diabetes, lung cancer treatments for smokers. I'm not saying that I actually object to these treatments, but you get the idea. Insurance is a collective. You pay in and are guaranteed certain coverage regardless of whether you use it or not. Your rates may go up because your neighbor has lots of health issues, but I don't get to choose which health issues of my neighbor gets covered. The same issue with our taxes. I pay in but I don't get to choose where my money goes.

PP, thanks for the shout out. I'm not that special. I got caught in an unfair situation and decided to do something about it. I continue to volunteer in this area because I feel passionately about women's reproductive rights.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I have a friend who lost a pregnancy at 18 weeks. She didn't find out that the baby's heart was no longer beating until she was 20 weeks. She couldn't have a D&E in Virginia (where she lives) because no doctor would perform the procedure because the was past 20 weeks of gestation. It didn't matter that all the doctors agreed that the baby was dead. She had to wait a 5 days for a doctor in DC to perform the procedure.

These laws have all sorts of horrific unintended consequences.

PP -- I find it very difficult to believe what you are saying is true.

If a fetus no longer has a heart beat -- how can a D&E be any kind of an abortion?? Why on earth would a Dr in VA have a problem performing a D&E on a fetus without a heartbeat?

Is the anti-abortion lobby that powerful in VA, that they can interfere with the delivery of a DEAD fetus?

ITA.

The doctors didn't want to perform the D&C because after 20 weeks you're supposed to DELIVER the baby.

I just want to give a shout out to LIVID. I followed the other threads regarding you and I'm so grateful you've been willing to work and put yourself out there. You're amazing.

Anonymous wrote:
I have a friend who lost a pregnancy at 18 weeks. She didn't find out that the baby's heart was no longer beating until she was 20 weeks. She couldn't have a D&E in Virginia (where she lives) because no doctor would perform the procedure because the was past 20 weeks of gestation. It didn't matter that all the doctors agreed that the baby was dead. She had to wait a 5 days for a doctor in DC to perform the procedure.

These laws have all sorts of horrific unintended consequences.

PP -- I find it very difficult to believe what you are saying is true.

If a fetus no longer has a heart beat -- how can a D&E be any kind of an abortion?? Why on earth would a Dr in VA have a problem performing a D&E on a fetus without a heartbeat?

Is the anti-abortion lobby that powerful in VA, that they can interfere with the delivery of a DEAD fetus?

Anonymous wrote:I should have noted that LIVID is a specific poster who explained therapeutic abortion in a way that I had not understood previously. (not that I'm not also livid about this law). Because of her story about her unborn child's problems, and the failure of her fed linked insurance to cover her much-needed abortion, she educated many of us about the issue. Like hers, this is not black and white. I have a visceral, knee-jerk negative reaction to late-term abortion. But the way they actually happen (seriously traumatic for the mother, usually a much-wanted child-to-be, almost always a medical need - like saving the life of the mother or a fetus that simply won't survive birth / more than a day or so after birth) and the way they are portrayed through the media (women just deciding to have these late-term abortions because they up and changed their minds, etc) are vastly different.

Previously I think I would have had no problem on an outright ban on late term abortions, but the issue is so complex. I think LIVID was a great example of the complexity, although as she has reminded me, she did not have to terminate later.

As a personally "pro-life" person (ie I think abortion is wrong in most cases) I still would never, ever, ever interfere with another human being's choice about what to do with her body. But late term abortions, and things like forcing insurance to pay for abortion tend to manipulate people like me because it's easy to be persuaded that we shouldn't have to help pay for something we don't support, or that there is this huge black and white divide between early and late term abortion. I still oppose (and would support reasonable limits on) a non-therapeutic third trimester abortion for non-medical reasons, but again, it's a really complex issue. Not nearly as simple as it sometimes seems.

I don't support IVF, frozen embryos, etc., if insurance pays for this then it should also pay for abortions at any stage a woman decides she wants one.

LIVID here. OP appreciate that you acknowledge that this issue is not so cut and dried. I am pro-choice all the way and spend a lot of my time (and money) volunteering for organizations that support reproductive rights, mostly Planned Parenthood and the Center for Reproductive Rights, so for others reading you know my bias.

Here is my take on the late term abortion issue. It doesn't happen for frivolous reasons. If a woman is terminating a pregnancy in the second or third trimester its because something is seriously wrong with the baby. For lots of women, they wouldn't find out about a neural tube defect, like my baby had, until 20 weeks. Women aren't going to PP at 20 weeks saying that they want to have abortions of perfectly healthy pregnancies and babies. These late term abortions are happening because something has sadly gone horribly wrong. The procedures need to be kept legal for those women.

I have a friend who lost a pregnancy at 18 weeks. She didn't find out that the baby's heart was no longer beating until she was 20 weeks. She couldn't have a D&E in Virginia (where she lives) because no doctor would perform the procedure because the was past 20 weeks of gestation. It didn't matter that all the doctors agreed that the baby was dead. She had to wait a 5 days for a doctor in DC to perform the procedure.

These laws have all sorts of horrific unintended consequences.

I should have noted that LIVID is a specific poster who explained therapeutic abortion in a way that I had not understood previously. (not that I'm not also livid about this law). Because of her story about her unborn child's problems, and the failure of her fed linked insurance to cover her much-needed abortion, she educated many of us about the issue. Like hers, this is not black and white. I have a visceral, knee-jerk negative reaction to late-term abortion. But the way they actually happen (seriously traumatic for the mother, usually a much-wanted child-to-be, almost always a medical need - like saving the life of the mother or a fetus that simply won't survive birth / more than a day or so after birth) and the way they are portrayed through the media (women just deciding to have these late-term abortions because they up and changed their minds, etc) are vastly different.

Previously I think I would have had no problem on an outright ban on late term abortions, but the issue is so complex. I think LIVID was a great example of the complexity, although as she has reminded me, she did not have to terminate later.

As a personally "pro-life" person (ie I think abortion is wrong in most cases) I still would never, ever, ever interfere with another human being's choice about what to do with her body. But late term abortions, and things like forcing insurance to pay for abortion tend to manipulate people like me because it's easy to be persuaded that we shouldn't have to help pay for something we don't support, or that there is this huge black and white divide between early and late term abortion. I still oppose (and would support reasonable limits on) a non-therapeutic third trimester abortion for non-medical reasons, but again, it's a really complex issue. Not nearly as simple as it sometimes seems.

Yes, OP. I am livid also.

I am involved with Center for Reproductive Rights and other organizations. I can not understand that this is happening in this great country in 2012.

LIVID here. Yes, I have been working against this to the extent I can. I've been talking to the Center for Reproductive Rights and I've been in contact with EHN's office. I won't be visiting offices like I did with the fed insurance issue. There are other women who have compelling stories about why this ban would be horrible. I terminated early because I found out early, but there are many women who wouldn't find out about any fetal abnormalities until 20 weeks.

I'm still out there doing what I can on all reproductive issues. These last three weeks have been particularly busy. I feel like all of us are under attack.

There is so much misunderstanding out there about this. I just want you to know that your story really touched me and made me better understand the other side of this extremely complicated issue. So frustrating that lawmakers continue to try to make it so black and white.

http://dcist.com/2012/02/norton_and_gray_lash_out_at_antiabortion.php