Dr. Salyer, McLean, 30+ yrs. exp., amazing with kids.

I live in the Northern Va area and i was made aware last week that my soon to be ex (we are going through a very volatile divorce) was Borderline. He is using the kids as pawns and it is very painful to see the effects on them. What kind of therapist should I take them to? I took them to a therapist a few months ago (prior to knowing about their dad being borderline) and the therapist said they were just being teenagers. However I know my kids and I knew something was wrong with them. Please help with any recommended therapists/books or anything I can do to help them now and in their future life. I want them to have a healthy life.

Anonymous wrote:OP, you didn't mention this issue but your bpd spouse will likely turn his attention to trying to destroy you through your children. I'm trying to think of how best to prepare them for this situation, and perhaps the best way is to recruit some third party adult to be in their lives now, to start building trust with them -- optimally someone who is neutral but has at least met both you and your spouse. A neighbor? A coach? Somehow they are going to need someone to turn to to sort through the lies and tricks that your (ex) spouse will bombard them with.

Simply getting divorced does not solve the problem. My dad and mom divorced when I was five, but he was so endlessly vicious that the crazy-making lying and cruelty hadn't stopped even 10 years later. If you think your lawyer has a hard time seeing through his charming seductive facade, imagine how completely taken in by it your kids will be. It won't matter that you take the high road, and it won't matter that his behavior is audacious. They won't have perspective, so they need some neutral person in their lives to provide that to them over the long run.

Going through this myself right now and ex is the same. The kids do see through it a bit but are so needy. The dumping of chaos into our lives whenever the kids start to do better and be less meeting of ex's emotional needs is so cruel. I'd welcome any other advice. The constant lying is even remarked on by the 3 year old. So sad.

OP, you didn't mention this issue but your bpd spouse will likely turn his attention to trying to destroy you through your children. I'm trying to think of how best to prepare them for this situation, and perhaps the best way is to recruit some third party adult to be in their lives now, to start building trust with them -- optimally someone who is neutral but has at least met both you and your spouse. A neighbor? A coach? Somehow they are going to need someone to turn to to sort through the lies and tricks that your (ex) spouse will bombard them with.

Simply getting divorced does not solve the problem. My dad and mom divorced when I was five, but he was so endlessly vicious that the crazy-making lying and cruelty hadn't stopped even 10 years later. If you think your lawyer has a hard time seeing through his charming seductive facade, imagine how completely taken in by it your kids will be. It won't matter that you take the high road, and it won't matter that his behavior is audacious. They won't have perspective, so they need some neutral person in their lives to provide that to them over the long run.

Carolyn Goodman is a divorce lawyer in DC. She has worked for 2 years with my close friend whose ex matches the BPD description to a tee. I read the blog referred to in an earlier post, and chills ran down my back.

For your situation, I think you should clarify to your attorney that you think your DH is misrepresenting facts and occurences, and to not believe what he says at face value. Can you get a medical professional to divulge his records? eg has he been formally diagonesed with BPD?

This is VERY interesting. My DH also presents himself as charming, humble, all around "nice guy" to the wolrd- but to me calls me names, mocks me, destroys things of mine -- I thought his behavior was perhaps just verbally abusive -- but he is now on antidepressants and other medication - and I wonder if maybe there is something more to his narcissism/gaslighting -- and if he might be BPD also?? Therapist said he is verbally abusive. But: What is the difference between someone who is verbally abusive/narcissistic/lacks empathy and someone who is BPD? Are they the same thing? Sorry if this question is naive.

I found Shari Schreiber's site very descriptive but not prescriptive. She has a lot of very accurate information which can easily mask the troublesome aspects of her writings such as many places where what she writes sounds less than professional or emotionally balanced and rather narcissistic such as:
1) 'I'm bothered that too many female and male therapists try to feminize men, and don't honor/respect the quintessential differences between females and males. .....'
While she may be right, why is she bringing that up in this context and spending time criticizing other professionals? RED FLAG
2)'PsychSavant ' without quotes is her self appointed title. RED FLAG
3) 'Good writers are born. Great writers are practiced.' but this is the sort of thing (too many on just her mini strategies page to list here) that adds up as wise snippets & ramblings rather than coherent so called mini strategies for anyone RED FLAG
4) Regarding some guy putting her down she writes to a different poster who brought up the man's remarks: 'That poor little man's attempts to discredit me seem to be back-firing, as he's making himself appear small/petty.' No matter if she is right that seems to have seething contempt and paranoia. She of all people should know and writes someplace I believe that messed up people are not trying to 'discredit' her, you whomever...they are really just trying to cover up their issues which she now sounds like she is insecure and doing the same thing by calling him 'little' etc. RED FLAG

^^my thoughts too.

Wow. very informative blog, (my dh to a T). OP, I am in the same exact boat. Let me know if you want to talk.

OP again. I read Shari Schreiber's website and it is indeed one of the most useful resources on the topic of bpd. I appreciate the information and your offers of assistance. Thank you!!

OP here.

I am a lawyer myself and have been for nearly 20 years. Somehow being honest and straight forward in the divorce process has gotten me nowhere. My husband goes on and on and on about perceived wrongs and is able to convince others due largely to his lack of emphathy, ease in making false statements and incredible gift of gab. As someone who now sees how manipulative a person with bpd can be, I was wondering whether there are lawyers who are more familiar with this personality type so that I dont have to keep pointing out that my husband a "liar" and saying things that make me look crazy while he remains calm and comes across as a sympathetic person. I understand my lawyer was not very good at handling this situation and so I am wondering if there are others who have had experience with an attorney who can see through this nonsense rather than wait and be educated about it.

For people who have not had a close relationship with Borderline I can tell you that it can take quite some time to realize what is going on...even if you understand the legal system very well. For people who have, it takes an instant and they "get it." It just so happened that the latest drama happened in front of a childhood friend while we were all on vacation. She is the head of a large medical center and a very well respected doctor. She watched me strugged for 2 days while I lay in her guest room sick to my stomach over what was happening. One evening she quietly said "he's borderline." I had no idea what that meant untill I looked it up and then a thousand light bulbs came on.

For the poster who made comments about abuse, I will add that DH's mother is SCARY abusive. I have never seen anyone go after people like she does and then act like nothing happened (in fact, the whole family acts like nothing happened.) I am so scared of her vitriolic comments and bulling demeanor that I have not gone to visit her home I witnessed a family fight that left a couple of her elementary aged grandchildren running and locking themselves in the bathroom and crying. Their parents were present and so was my husband but everyone was "cool" with it and sat down to a nice dinner 20 minutes later and "talked about the weather." The ironiy is...she's a kingergarten teacher and has been for 35 years!

Again, thanks for all the feedback. It is all very informative.

OP,

As a lawyer I'm wondering what it is that you want/need your lawyer to understand? For example, if it is to explain that he lies, your lawyer should understand this without needing to know why he lies. If it is because you're fighting for custody, I think your lawyer is going to need more than your explanation. And if it is because you want sympathy, you need to find a therapist for that.

10:41 here again - just wanted to add this link. An active board all on BPD - I think there is even a section on divorce.
http://www.bpdfamily.com/message_board/

Anonymous wrote:Dear OP-

I am so sorry that you are going through this. I am a school psychologist and Licensed Professional Counselor in DC. I do expert witness work and I do therapy.

I am also adjunct faculty at a local university....in other words I am legit and "for real".

I would suggest that both you and perhaps your attorney google "gettin better" by Shari Schreiber (sp?). It is a great blog/website that deals with BPD and NPD and she does a great job describing BPD males to a tee.

I am glad you are getting out. I had a "something" with a BPD male and it took me 8 months to realize he was BPD. The disorder is underdiagnosed in men and over diagnosed in women (80 percent). Why? Because the men tend to present as charming and quite narcissistic and confident, bur underneath that surface is a swamp of dysfunction.

These guys will lie, cheat, and steal all the time manipulating others and situations into making you seem crazy. This process is called "gas lighting" or "crazy making" Both BPD's and Antisocials (or what are commonly referred to as sociopaths) will do this and there is a great deal of overlap between these two disorders. BPD, like NPD and the Antisocial lacks empathy and there will never be a real relationship between you two because of this.

If you need a consultant or expert witness, I will do the work for you pro bono. I have done expert witness work in the past and I can give you references. My name is Dr. Land

There is so much more to having BPD than lying, cheating and manipulation. Those are just behaviors and if that is all there was it wouldn't be a disorder...just a guy who lied, cheated and manipulated. The intention behind the behavior is not to make you crazy - usually the person is very emotionally unstable and acts in a way to try and stabilize their own mood or get their own needs met as it is a horrible feeling to be so out of control of how they feel. The problem is that their efforts to stabilize and control their own moods and the manner in which they go about trying to get their needs met negatively impacts others. Read some of the work by Marsha Linehan - she developed Dialectical Behavior Therapy as a modality to treat BPD (she has apparently disclosed she had BPD herself). The root of BPD is often a chaotic, dysfunctional or abusive childhood where secure attachments were missing and the child experienced rejection, abandonment, loss and didn't have their basic emotional needs met. Or there was trauma that shattered their assumptions about trust and attachment and what they created as new assumptions was very disordered. Ideally you can get your husband in with a therapist who does DBT - for the sake of the kids post divorce. BPD also tends to improve with age (late 40's and 50's) however by then there is too much damage and dysfunction in their wake to often to able to form healthy relationships.

OP I can somewhat relate to what you're dealing with. You might have seen my post about "creative suggestions for getting of of my marriage," on this board.

My husband most likely has some BPD, and definitely has narcissistic tendencies, but I can SO empathize with you because I deal with the same exact thing---my husband presents as a charming, humble, all around "nice guy" to others, but to me (and my DS) it's a whole different story!

Where are you? If you're in northern VA, I could recommend a therapist (neuropsyche) who was my husband's therapist for a while. He does not take any BS, and tells it like it is. I was actually kind of shocked sometimes at how he talked to my husband, but in all honesty, that's the only thing that seemed to help.

I'm headed for divorce myself right now, so obviously things didn't change much, and I don't think they do when you have someone with BPD or NPD.

Sending many thoughts and prayers your way, so sorry you are having to deal with this crap too!!!

I have been in a "troubled" marriage for 5 years and finally want out for good. However,
I am finding it next to impossible to keep up with the lies and strategizing that is
second nature for my husband. I have young children and work full time so much of my energy
is spent just coping with all of the problems he creates. My attorney
does not understand because he is very attractive, charming and calm.

Has anyone been able to divorce this type of a person and if so,
can you please tell me of a divorce lawyer and/or therapist you used to help
you get through this process.

Thanks!