SAM2 wrote:I've been reading about these ES & MS programs recently, and I noticed that one of the primary paths to entrance seems to be tests like the WISC. Many people on these boards regularly complain that those tests are not accurate indicators of IQ/giftedness. If that's so, then it seems inevitable that some children who successfully test into HGC/magnet programs will find themselves unable to keep up with the highly accelerated pace. (Indeed, if you believe the most vocal critics of these tests, then most children in HGC/magnet programs won't really fit the profile!)

How do these programs handle children that are struggling to keep up? Are they counseled out? Are they permitted to remain, but just given a non-accelerated workload? And do children that test into a magnet/HGC program have to re-qualify each year? Or are they given the benefit of the doubt in later years once they test in?

Thanks in advance to those with first-hand info.

It's not the WISC that is the test, but even so I think your premise is wrong. While many people complain that tests like the WISC are inaccurate indicators of giftedness, the inaccuracy is mostly unidirectional -- that tests under-represent kids who are capable of doing "gifted" work (whatever the F that means).

Dumb luck may lead a child who should really score a 73 to get a 77 instead. But dumb luck is not going to lead that child to score a 99.9. However, there are many factors which could lead a very intelligent child at the 99.9 level to score a 73 (language difference, learning or processing disabilities, testing anxiety, test design accuracy, lack of exposure to what is considered the body of knowledge for the age group, etc.)

Thus, the likelihood of a child who is really not that smart, scoring so well as to get into the HGC is really slim to none. (Not to mention also having great grades and teacher recs.)

Other complaints that tests don't measure giftedness go more to the definition of giftedness and what can accurately predict it, not that the tests over predict in terms of academic readiness.

Our child is at an HGC and she reports no child is struggling. The only kid who left, left because she missed her friends at the home school. Any kids who are "struggling" seem to be the type who are struggling because of organizational issues, not substantive academics or because they are so bright that even at the HGC they are bored.

By the nature of the application process, these are kids who are already performing a number of years above grade level in both reading and math. Kids in the program read a minimum of 2 years above level upon entry. Math, at least one year. In addition to the Raven and HGC test, the application file has teacher recs, parent recs, and grade transcripts which include reading and math achievement scores, MSAs, etc. The application process reveals very clearly those kids who are already working far above grade level -- there's no "pushing" the HGC kids. The HGC is merely serving them where they are.

There are so many people applying to the HGC program that even those on the waitlist are very qualified.

As for enrichment vs. acceleration -- it is true that the HGC kids still have to do the normal 4/5 curriculum. But they are not just enriched; they are definitely accelerated. In math, all HGC kids are at least one year ahead, more than half are 2 or more years ahead. In reading, additional books are assigned at higher than 4/5 reading levels. Lots of independent research/writing projects, etc. If it were just the 4/5 curriculum, parents wouldn't see the point of sending kids.

Anonymous wrote:Thanks, but you get my drift.

Yes, and I agree with your point. The testing may not be 100% reliable, but the students who work their way through these programs are largely highly successful.

Thanks, but you get my drift.

Anonymous wrote:test into 4/5 th grade HGC (8 centers in County) test into Takoma Park Magnet (1of 2 centers in County) test into Blair Magnet (1 of 2 centers in County) test into College (highest PSAT(40 % NMSF higher with commendation), SAT, AP scores in County private or public). This funnel produces some high powered talent despite the worthlesness of entry and exit tests.

I believe there are seven Centers. The Pinecrest/Oak View are one and the same; Oak View was only used as a locale due to lack of space for a third Center classroom at Pinecrest.

Ugh. I hate that smilie. It should be for entry in years 3 - 8.

SAM2 wrote:Thanks for your response. Further questions below.

The Wechsler is not used in MoCo. The Raven is one part of the tests, but only one. Other criteria go into the selection process.

I had read this -- http://www.examiner.com/school-rankings-in-washington-dc/details-of-the-montgomery-county-gifted-and-talented-identification-process -- to suggest it was. But maybe that's wrong. And in the end, it doesn't matter which test is used, since they're all subject to the same criticism.

Children who are struggling have the option to return to their home schools, or to leave for a school of their choosing (or to be homeschooled). To my knowledge they are not "counseled out." Workload is not adjusted for individuals.

But does that mean children who struggle simply are allowed to fail at a highly accelerated courseload? Someone told me that HGCs typically push children to work 2-3 years ahead of grade level. If that's true, then won't that be a pretty miserable experience for a struggling child? It sounds like you're saying the answer is "tough luck, kid -- if you can't cut it, get out." Is that correct? And if all the critics of these tests are right, that would suggest that 50% or fewer of the test results are accurate indicators, which would seem to indicate that a fairly high percentage of children might be struggling. Do you see a high percentage struggling at your child's HGC?

The HGC is a program for 4/5 graders. If those students wish to attend a magnet middle school, they must go through the entrance exam and application process like everyone else. (If they were automatic-ins, it wouldn't be fair to other students, would it?)

So those that test in for 4th grade are given a pass at 5th grade (no re-test there)? I don't know enough about it to judge what's "fair" or not -- I'd imagine some parents whose children were part of the ES HGC, but not admitted to the MS HCG, might argue it's not fair to separate their child from his friends. But setting aside fairness, I definitely think regular re-tests would be important as the children develop, to ensure the HGC has highly-gifted group it seeks.

Thanks for your responses.

The workload is not "highly accelerated." It is enriched, meaning it is the same 4/5 grades curriculum as at other schools, but done in a deeper, more enriched and challenging way.

They do not "push" the children to work 2-3 grade levels ahead. All of the children are working at least 2 grade levels ahead in at least one subject - that is why they are in the Center. The Center program seeks to challenge them at the level at which they are functioning.

Just for contrast, in FCPS, you test in once (any time in grades 2-7 for entry in years 3-8). Once you're in, you're in for the haul if you choose to stay. But FCPS has more centers is probably more for the needs of kids who are MG/HG vs HG and HG+. Also, I would imagine that kids with IEPs and 504s do receive some accommodation, so kids who are struggling due to particular issues may be accommodated in those ways.

In general, I think more people have issues with the WPPSI than the WISC. The former is for kids under 7. The latter is for kids 6+. At the older ages, scores tend to be more stable and are less subject to environmental enrichment, although that will continue to play a role of course.

SAM2 wrote:Thanks for your response. Further questions below.

The Wechsler is not used in MoCo. The Raven is one part of the tests, but only one. Other criteria go into the selection process.

I had read this -- http://www.examiner.com/school-rankings-in-washington-dc/details-of-the-montgomery-county-gifted-and-talented-identification-process -- to suggest it was. But maybe that's wrong. And in the end, it doesn't matter which test is used, since they're all subject to the same criticism.

Children who are struggling have the option to return to their home schools, or to leave for a school of their choosing (or to be homeschooled). To my knowledge they are not "counseled out." Workload is not adjusted for individuals.

But does that mean children who struggle simply are allowed to fail at a highly accelerated courseload? Someone told me that HGCs typically push children to work 2-3 years ahead of grade level. If that's true, then won't that be a pretty miserable experience for a struggling child? It sounds like you're saying the answer is "tough luck, kid -- if you can't cut it, get out." Is that correct? And if all the critics of these tests are right, that would suggest that 50% or fewer of the test results are accurate indicators, which would seem to indicate that a fairly high percentage of children might be struggling. Do you see a high percentage struggling at your child's HGC?

The HGC is a program for 4/5 graders. If those students wish to attend a magnet middle school, they must go through the entrance exam and application process like everyone else. (If they were automatic-ins, it wouldn't be fair to other students, would it?)

So those that test in for 4th grade are given a pass at 5th grade (no re-test there)? I don't know enough about it to judge what's "fair" or not -- I'd imagine some parents whose children were part of the ES HGC, but not admitted to the MS HCG, might argue it's not fair to separate their child from his friends. But setting aside fairness, I definitely think regular re-tests would be important as the children develop, to ensure the HGC has highly-gifted group it seeks.

Thanks for your responses.

RE the inaccuracy of testing, as I said above, the test is only one of several criteria - other criteria include grades, teacher statements, parent statements. The net result seems to be that the kids who are admitted are prepared for the work. Indeed, the waitlist is full of kids whose profiles are really about the same as those of the admitted applicants. Those who get in, are capable of doing the work. Whether they want to be in the Center program (and there are lots of reasons that it might not be a good fit for a given individual) is another story. If the fit isn't right, or they are unhappy, they can return to the home school.

RE friends, school isn't about friends from MCPS's point of view. I don't think that "fairness" approach would fly.

RE re-testing, since the HGC program is structured for 4th & 5th graders (i.e. 5th graders don't get a "pass"; it's that this is the way it is organized), I don't see when re-testing would take place. At the end of fourth grade?

If a student wants to go to a competitive-entrance magnet middle program, s/he has to apply, so there is your "re-testing" wrt HGC kids.

Anonymous wrote:... And that regular retest idea is ridiculous. "Setting aside fairness"? They form a group and are together for two years. How disruptive and cruel to retest them to continue for the second year!

I think the admissions process is really tough, and there aren't many kids there who don't deserve to be there.

Don't get me wrong on tests -- I'm just repeating the arguments many people on DCUM make about supposed inaccuracy. I personally think the tests are actually more effective than many people give them credit for. Maybe an individual child will have variation in scores over the years, but if she's testing at 99% -- 98% -- 92% -- 98% over a multi-year span, I think she probably belongs in a gifted program despite the 92% "blemish" on her record.

As for a regular re-test, that's not my idea, but something I've seen proposed for the NYC gifted/magnet school program. The proposal I read was a fresh re-test each year. I think that's a good idea for identifying the top group of students, but is bad public policy because it removes stability for the children. I think the proper interval is something reasonable people can debate -- every year might be too often, but every six years might be too infrequent.

My DC is in 5th grade at an HGC. A couple of kids have left because they missed their home schools, but I don't know of any who are struggling enough to need to leave.

And that regular retest idea is ridiculous. "Setting aside fairness"? They form a group and are together for two years. How disruptive and cruel to retest them to continue for the second year!

I think the admissions process is really tough, and there aren't many kids there who don't deserve to be there.

test into 4/5 th grade HGC (8 centers in County) test into Takoma Park Magnet (1of 2 centers in County) test into Blair Magnet (1 of 2 centers in County) test into College (highest PSAT(40 % NMSF higher with commendation), SAT, AP scores in County private or public). This funnel produces some high powered talent despite the worthlesness of entry and exit tests.

Thanks for your response. Further questions below.

The Wechsler is not used in MoCo. The Raven is one part of the tests, but only one. Other criteria go into the selection process.

I had read this -- http://www.examiner.com/school-rankings-in-washington-dc/details-of-the-montgomery-county-gifted-and-talented-identification-process -- to suggest it was. But maybe that's wrong. And in the end, it doesn't matter which test is used, since they're all subject to the same criticism.

Children who are struggling have the option to return to their home schools, or to leave for a school of their choosing (or to be homeschooled). To my knowledge they are not "counseled out." Workload is not adjusted for individuals.

But does that mean children who struggle simply are allowed to fail at a highly accelerated courseload? Someone told me that HGCs typically push children to work 2-3 years ahead of grade level. If that's true, then won't that be a pretty miserable experience for a struggling child? It sounds like you're saying the answer is "tough luck, kid -- if you can't cut it, get out." Is that correct? And if all the critics of these tests are right, that would suggest that 50% or fewer of the test results are accurate indicators, which would seem to indicate that a fairly high percentage of children might be struggling. Do you see a high percentage struggling at your child's HGC?

The HGC is a program for 4/5 graders. If those students wish to attend a magnet middle school, they must go through the entrance exam and application process like everyone else. (If they were automatic-ins, it wouldn't be fair to other students, would it?)

So those that test in for 4th grade are given a pass at 5th grade (no re-test there)? I don't know enough about it to judge what's "fair" or not -- I'd imagine some parents whose children were part of the ES HGC, but not admitted to the MS HCG, might argue it's not fair to separate their child from his friends. But setting aside fairness, I definitely think regular re-tests would be important as the children develop, to ensure the HGC has highly-gifted group it seeks.

Thanks for your responses.

SAM2 wrote:I've been reading about these ES & MS programs recently, and I noticed that one of the primary paths to entrance seems to be tests like the WISC. Many people on these boards regularly complain that those tests are not accurate indicators of IQ/giftedness. If that's so, then it seems inevitable that some children who successfully test into HGC/magnet programs will find themselves unable to keep up with the highly accelerated pace. (Indeed, if you believe the most vocal critics of these tests, then most children in HGC/magnet programs won't really fit the profile!)

How do these programs handle children that are struggling to keep up? Are they counseled out? Are they permitted to remain, but just given a non-accelerated workload? And do children that test into a magnet/HGC program have to re-qualify each year? Or are they given the benefit of the doubt in later years once they test in?

Thanks in advance to those with first-hand info.

The Wechsler is not used in MoCo. The Raven is one part of the tests, but only one. Other criteria go into the selection process.

Children who are struggling have the option to return to their home schools, or to leave for a school of their choosing (or to be homeschooled). To my knowledge they are not "counseled out." Workload is not adjusted for individuals.

The HGC is a program for 4/5 graders. If those students wish to attend a magnet middle school, they must go through the entrance exam and application process like everyone else. (If they were automatic-ins, it wouldn't be fair to other students, would it?)

I've been reading about these ES & MS programs recently, and I noticed that one of the primary paths to entrance seems to be tests like the WISC. Many people on these boards regularly complain that those tests are not accurate indicators of IQ/giftedness. If that's so, then it seems inevitable that some children who successfully test into HGC/magnet programs will find themselves unable to keep up with the highly accelerated pace. (Indeed, if you believe the most vocal critics of these tests, then most children in HGC/magnet programs won't really fit the profile!)

How do these programs handle children that are struggling to keep up? Are they counseled out? Are they permitted to remain, but just given a non-accelerated workload? And do children that test into a magnet/HGC program have to re-qualify each year? Or are they given the benefit of the doubt in later years once they test in?

Thanks in advance to those with first-hand info.