Anonymous wrote:I disagree that things are more contentious.

I think at more senior levels, people are more focused on important work decisions. They will cut to the chase. Less niceties. A more pragmatic reality of goals, requirements, limitations, etc. They are also the people who have been promoted already, so have demonstrated they are already able to focus on these things and ignore a lot of the soft topics at work.

Some personality types are going to interpret this as contentious, mean, vicious, cruel. Other people don't, and can separate the task at hand from emotions. I am the latter - i am not bothered by convos that lack niceties and is facing hard questions. But i've certainly had friends and colleagues over the years who would be horrified by those interactions. Those people tend not to get to senior levels in corporates, tbh.

Thanks so much for this. I am also questioning myself if I am just not cut out for this, too green, too naive. I'm just appalled how people would let someone sign off on a project they already know will be doomed to fail so they can kick that person out. I tried to call it out and then I was told I was not strategic. I expressed concern about the expense that project would cost the company, including the aftermath and I was laughed at and *mildly* threatened to be booted out as well

Interesting. A few years ago, an executive told me that it gets easier once you pass middle management. She said middle management is the most cutthroat level, but once you get to the executive level, people aren't as competitive/insecure.

I disagree that things are more contentious.

I think at more senior levels, people are more focused on important work decisions. They will cut to the chase. Less niceties. A more pragmatic reality of goals, requirements, limitations, etc. They are also the people who have been promoted already, so have demonstrated they are already able to focus on these things and ignore a lot of the soft topics at work.

Some personality types are going to interpret this as contentious, mean, vicious, cruel. Other people don't, and can separate the task at hand from emotions. I am the latter - i am not bothered by convos that lack niceties and is facing hard questions. But i've certainly had friends and colleagues over the years who would be horrified by those interactions. Those people tend not to get to senior levels in corporates, tbh.

Anonymous wrote:I am ragged out. Got a senior director
promotion 2 years ago and I dont know
if it's just the times, but it feels most of my work relationships and meetings are getting more contentious. Less civil. More game of thrones. Like people are happy to see competitors fail, even at the expense of the entire industry. Meetings feel like pissing contests eveey single time. I dont even want to play because I just find it so distasteful. Both my parents were working class so I have no exposure to these types of interactions. Curious if other people are seeing similar and what did you do to survive. I had previously wanted to own my own line as a VP but now I am not sure

Thank you.

My dad is a retired VP. He made money. I am not sure if he is happy today..His wife(my mom) certainly isn't. We (his kids) aren't that thrilled to be around him. That position turned him into a monster. He is very poor health despite being only 70.

Is it really worth it to be the guy with one of the biggest d**k in the room? I don't know man

PP. You might like the book "Moral Mazes" by Robert Jackall. Or you can just read the AI summary, lol.

Moral Mazes: The World of Corporate Managers is a 1988 non-fiction book by sociologist Robert Jackall that examines the moral and social world of corporate managers in the United States. Based on fieldwork and interviews, the book argues that corporate bureaucracy shapes managers' moral consciousness, leading to a pragmatic, goal-oriented mindset where personal integrity is often compromised for success. Key findings include the importance of public performance, the manipulation of symbols, and the intense competition for status within these organizations.

Key themes and findings

Bureaucracy and moral consciousness: Jackall argues that the structure of large corporations regularizes daily life, subordinates individuals to authority, and fosters a pragmatic, goal-oriented mindset that can lead to a compromise of conventional morality.

Public performance: Managers must maintain a "cheerfully-bland public face" while hiding their true intentions and engaging in intense competition. This involves a form of "emotional labor" where they sublimate their own needs to meet the demands of others.

Pragmatism over principle: In this environment, moral questions are often treated as practical concerns or public relations issues, and success depends on a manager's ability to be a "dexterous symbol manipulator".

Competition and hierarchy: The corporate world creates an elaborate status hierarchy that fuels intense competition for prestige, making organizational rules and procedures paramount guides for behavior.

The "moral maze": The title reflects the idea that managers must navigate a complex and often contradictory environment where they are constantly making compromises to succeed, leading them to question how to maintain personal integrity.

There are lots of trip-ups. Here are some from the perspective of a lower-level independent contributor

New to the company and don't fit in
New to the company and can't deliver
Old boy's club thinks you're a b or technically less than (=female)
Overpromoted and can't deliver
Affairs that violate policy
Mentor retired and left you without air cover

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't believe this is actually a question. Of course it does.

Thanks. That's how stressed I am, like I feel I just need a reality check. I knew it was cut throat but I thought that was more crazy competition, rather than hostility. To the poster who said these BS are not easy on the mind or body, you are so right. I feel so heavy.

Make sure to take care of yourself, whether it’s through regular exercise, massage or any other self care tools. Work itself never harmed anyone, it’s the politics and toxicity that is to be managed. Do you have a spouse who works? In your situation a working spouse can be a life saver because you know the entire household is not dependent on your income and that helps immensely with the stress.

My DH makes good money around 600k, comparatively I make less at 170k, but I am in a more stable job and he knows we can manage on one income if the need be and this makes him way less stressed.

Also, if you both work then just save, save and save so that in case of any nasty surprises you are more or less okay. Many hugs to you and hope things get better.

Anonymous wrote:I can't believe this is actually a question. Of course it does.

Thanks. That's how stressed I am, like I feel I just need a reality check. I knew it was cut throat but I thought that was more crazy competition, rather than hostility. To the poster who said these BS are not easy on the mind or body, you are so right. I feel so heavy.

Yes. The stakes are much higher and there’s further to fall, much harder to bounce back. But the smoothness of the operation becomes so much more profound, too. It’s really amazing.

That said, the culture right now definitely doesn’t help.

Are you anywhere adjacent to the Federal Government? My company had always been great but got super toxic when DOGE started and has pretty much gone downhill from there. A lot of politics and people scrambling for the remaining musical chairs as contracts get cut.

I can't believe this is actually a question. Of course it does.

Fifteen years back DH resigned as a Sr. Director at Northrup Grumman exactly because of these issues, his biggest peeve was that there wasn't much work going on except the proverbial d*** measuring contest. He has a Master's in Comp Science, starting his own consultancy and never looked back at corporate. It's especially hard for people who want to do some justice to actual work, however, if this is your career trajectory then I would suggest working with a life coach and really do some breathing/calming exercises daily. This sort of BS isn't good for the mind or the body. Good luck!

Yes you are seeing it correctly and it only gets worse. Empire building, nepotism, competition, just stupid stuff. You were definitely immune to it at lower levels. I'm sure you're paid well, so hang on as long as you can. Trust me at some point the money stock etc etc just isn't worth it any more.

Anonymous wrote:I am ragged out. Got a senior director
promotion 2 years ago and I dont know
if it's just the times, but it feels most of my work relationships and meetings are getting more contentious. Less civil. More game of thrones. Like people are happy to see competitors fail, even at the expense of the entire industry. Meetings feel like pissing contests eveey single time. I dont even want to play because I just find it so distasteful. Both my parents were working class so I have no exposure to these types of interactions. Curious if other people are seeing similar and what did you do to survive. I had previously wanted to own my own line as a VP but now I am not sure

Thank you.

Yes. It does get worse and I can relate to your experience.

My hunch: The job market is bad and the economy is bad. People are afraid of getting laid off.

I am ragged out. Got a senior director
promotion 2 years ago and I dont know
if it's just the times, but it feels most of my work relationships and meetings are getting more contentious. Less civil. More game of thrones. Like people are happy to see competitors fail, even at the expense of the entire industry. Meetings feel like pissing contests eveey single time. I dont even want to play because I just find it so distasteful. Both my parents were working class so I have no exposure to these types of interactions. Curious if other people are seeing similar and what did you do to survive. I had previously wanted to own my own line as a VP but now I am not sure

Thank you.