Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If Jesus did not rise from the dead, where did the body wind up? Wouldn't the Romans have wanted to locate it to dispel any beliefs that people had about him being supernatural?

This question is akin to suggesting that the page in Esptein’s birthday book is a forgery that somebody thought to fabricate and include in the book years before the person alleged to have created it decided to run for highest office.

Jesus wasn’t widely considered supernatural at the time of his death. That widespread belief was sown years later.

I’m OP. I agree with the bolded though I’m surprised you do. The implication of your statement is that something changed between ~33 AD (when Jesus was crucified) and the 50s AD when the earliest written sources appear about Jesus and portray him as a literal divinity. Christians have a pretty clear answer as to what changed: Jesus appeared to people and announced that he had been resurrected. Non-Christians do not have a single cohesive answer except to suggest that it’s entirely possible that people could claim he appeared to them when he did not (something that is of course entirely true but isn’t much of an explanation).

Anonymous wrote:If Jesus did not rise from the dead, where did the body wind up? Wouldn't the Romans have wanted to locate it to dispel any beliefs that people had about him being supernatural?

This question is akin to suggesting that the page in Esptein’s birthday book is a forgery that somebody thought to fabricate and include in the book years before the person alleged to have created it decided to run for highest office.

Jesus wasn’t widely considered supernatural at the time of his death. That widespread belief was sown years later.

Anonymous wrote:When Jesus of Nazareth was famously sentenced to death, his movement was in disarray and hemorrhaging followers. He died, but shortly thereafter, it exploded in numbers, buoyed by accounts that he’d begun appearing to people again. Secular accounts suggest that within decades of his death, his followers had reached such diverse locales as places now known as France, Iran, and Tunisia. Curiously, many of those followers had (to use a crude modern expression) “grown a pair” and were now willing to die to stand by their claims.

Something objectively changed with these fellas. I’m inclined to believe their explanation.

OP here. The rival theories in this thread so far are:

• his followers were “disenfranchised”
• people have an innate need to believe in miracles
• starvation (this comment was removed or deleted)
• there is “disinformation”
• it doesn’t matter if He was actually resurrected.
• movements tend to revitalize when there is a dying martyr.

This nicely illustrates the basis of my opinion: there is not one obvious counter-explanation. There are, instead, a bunch of little things you can say that have the ring of an explanation to them but that are cast at a level of generality so high as to not really say much at all. In many cases, the explanations actually seem wrong on the facts—I am aware of nothing to suggest Peter suffered from a famine or that Paul (seemingly doing fine for himself before his conversion?) joined an obscure messianic movement in hopes of ridding himself of disenfranchisement (as though the Christians had their act together). Moreover, these explanations could apply to a wide range of situations today without yielding comparable results. There is plenty of disinformation. It rarely (if ever) has turned into a movement of the size, scope, or temporal durability of Christianity.

Think about this a bit. God bless you all.

Anonymous wrote:Because people need to believe in miracles in order to dissociate from reality… but doesn’t make them real

People do not risk being thrown to lions, beheaded, sawn asunder, burned alive, or have their goods confiscated becoming penniless, driven into the wilderness for a fake miracle or for a lie.

One delusional person might do this but not thousands of people who saw Jesus and his miracles, and those who met Jesus after he was resurrected.

All evidence points to Jesus being the son of God who was recognized by John even when both were in the womb and later:

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Many of the world religions acknowledge that Jesus was a prophet from God but Jesus never acknowledged Allah, Buddha, nor any man-made god, demigod, or deity. Jesus said

I and my Father are one. (John 10:30)

Judaism and Islam are antiChrist religions.

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. (1 John 2:22)

Jesus died for my sins. Whether or not the body walked isn't necessary for me to believe my spirit will endure after my body dies. It's my belief and that's that. I also believe my non Christian DH and I and all our our pets will all be together somehow.
If that does happen, my idea of heaven. If it doesn't well I won't know that, will I. So it's a comfort now.

I’m Christian but I still recognize that nothing revitalizes a dying movement as much as a martyr. It doesn’t prove anything one way or another except that it was a story that found resonance with a lot of people at that time. The fact that the Roman Empire was in a slow collapse during that time period also probably contributed to a general political/social instability that made people want to find a new way of thinking about their world and group membership. Power voids are great for messianic movements, throughout history.

Jesus was an amazing person. Was he the son of God? I doubt it. We need a reason such an incredible man was born. Was the resurrecton real? Probably not. We need a reason to live by his teachings.

I don't know why we can't just have a religion based on the amazing teachings of Christ, a real human who really existed and really did say amazing things.

If Jesus did not rise from the dead, where did the body wind up? Wouldn't the Romans have wanted to locate it to dispel any beliefs that people had about him being supernatural?

Do you suppose there was a great increase in information and disinformation, similar to today?

Remember Romeo and Juliet. People can think you’re dead and you’re not actually back in the day.

Anonymous wrote:Because people need to believe in miracles in order to dissociate from reality… but doesn’t make them real

This^^

The disenfranchised need to form an identity to uprise and get their freedom.

When your life is out of control, you have to cling to something unworldly to keep up hope to move forward.

This is why it’s so easy to religiously radicalize alcoholics, drug addicts, and people in jail.

Anonymous wrote:Because people need to believe in miracles in order to dissociate from reality… but doesn’t make them real

A story as old as time.

Because people need to believe in miracles in order to dissociate from reality… but doesn’t make them real

Anonymous wrote:When Jesus of Nazareth was famously sentenced to death, his movement was in disarray and hemorrhaging followers. He died, but shortly thereafter, it exploded in numbers, buoyed by accounts that he’d begun appearing to people again. Secular accounts suggest that within decades of his death, his followers had reached such diverse locales as places now known as France, Iran, and Tunisia. Curiously, many of those followers had (to use a crude modern expression) “grown a pair” and were now willing to die to stand by their claims.

Something objectively changed with these fellas. I’m inclined to believe their explanation.

The apostles trekked far and wide to spread the word. Those people became Christians for no other reason than that.

When Jesus of Nazareth was famously sentenced to death, his movement was in disarray and hemorrhaging followers. He died, but shortly thereafter, it exploded in numbers, buoyed by accounts that he’d begun appearing to people again. Secular accounts suggest that within decades of his death, his followers had reached such diverse locales as places now known as France, Iran, and Tunisia. Curiously, many of those followers had (to use a crude modern expression) “grown a pair” and were now willing to die to stand by their claims.

Something objectively changed with these fellas. I’m inclined to believe their explanation.