Anonymous wrote:Both PISA and NAEP results have reported poor math results for the US for many years.

Various forms of "new math" curricula have been tried without improvement. What we do not do is teach math effectively. Many students, probably most students, do not get enough math practice. If we were good at teaching then the after school math centers would not be spread from coast to coast.

Other countries with high math scores in PISA teach students math methods that always work and only teach one method per topic (e.g., Multiplication, division, algebra) so the students get enough practice to memorize that one method.

This times 1000. Bright students can handle being taught multiple methods to solve problems. Slower kids need to be taught one way until they master it. Imagine if your new neighbor asked you directions for how to get to Target and knowing that they were new to the area, you told them the simplest, most direct way. After time and many trips using that way, they might start trying other ways or not but they would know how to get to Target. Instead we teach kids all of the ways to get to Target in fairly quick succession. The result is some kids getting most or all of the ways correct and many kids having no idea how to get there. That's math education in public schools.


-a teacher

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Am I the only moderate to liberal educator who believes we can't really close the gap? Some kids are just not going to excel academically, and some are just never going to be able to read past a 4th or 5th grade level, no matter how much money or curriculum or tech we throw at the problem. I do think all kids going through the public school system should graduate being able to read at this 4th/5th grade level, barring significance differences or disability.

What a shame that someone without any disabilities would graduate from high school, yet only read at a fourth grade level. These students are surely capable of achieving more and are being shortchanged.

I mean, I think all normal grads should be able to read daily life text, and be able to do simple calculation, make change, measure, estimate, round.... We'd be better off if all or almost all grads could do these basic life skills and therefore be able to live and contribute to society. Not everybody needs to read Hamlet or do Algebra.

I agree. If you look at the actual 5th grade standards, it is fluency with arithmetic functions, with fractions, decimals, area, times tables, graphing on a coordinate plane, etc.); reading and comprehending books like wonder, where the red fern grows; and having the basics of clear opinion, narrative, and expository writing. Local newspapers are often in the 5th-6th grade reading level range. Anyone who masters these skills and has no disability that would otherwise impact things would be able to find productive, non-minimum wage employment.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Am I the only moderate to liberal educator who believes we can't really close the gap? Some kids are just not going to excel academically, and some are just never going to be able to read past a 4th or 5th grade level, no matter how much money or curriculum or tech we throw at the problem. I do think all kids going through the public school system should graduate being able to read at this 4th/5th grade level, barring significance differences or disability.

What a shame that someone without any disabilities would graduate from high school, yet only read at a fourth grade level. These students are surely capable of achieving more and are being shortchanged.

I mean, I think all normal grads should be able to read daily life text, and be able to do simple calculation, make change, measure, estimate, round.... We'd be better off if all or almost all grads could do these basic life skills and therefore be able to live and contribute to society. Not everybody needs to read Hamlet or do Algebra.

An adult who can only read at a 4th grade level is functionally illiterate. What you've described is more along the lines of a basic 8th grade education.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Am I the only moderate to liberal educator who believes we can't really close the gap? Some kids are just not going to excel academically, and some are just never going to be able to read past a 4th or 5th grade level, no matter how much money or curriculum or tech we throw at the problem. I do think all kids going through the public school system should graduate being able to read at this 4th/5th grade level, barring significance differences or disability.

You're missing the point. According to the data, the gap has widened, and is now at its widest ever. The question is, why has the gap widened so much in just two decades? "Some kids just can't" doesn't suffice to explain why more kids can't in 2025 than in 2005.

Common core.

Screens.

The breakdown of society.

Adults can read anymore, either, or calculate sums. Why would their kids be able to?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Am I the only moderate to liberal educator who believes we can't really close the gap? Some kids are just not going to excel academically, and some are just never going to be able to read past a 4th or 5th grade level, no matter how much money or curriculum or tech we throw at the problem. I do think all kids going through the public school system should graduate being able to read at this 4th/5th grade level, barring significance differences or disability.

What a shame that someone without any disabilities would graduate from high school, yet only read at a fourth grade level. These students are surely capable of achieving more and are being shortchanged.

I mean, I think all normal grads should be able to read daily life text, and be able to do simple calculation, make change, measure, estimate, round.... We'd be better off if all or almost all grads could do these basic life skills and therefore be able to live and contribute to society. Not everybody needs to read Hamlet or do Algebra.

Anonymous wrote:Am I the only moderate to liberal educator who believes we can't really close the gap? Some kids are just not going to excel academically, and some are just never going to be able to read past a 4th or 5th grade level, no matter how much money or curriculum or tech we throw at the problem. I do think all kids going through the public school system should graduate being able to read at this 4th/5th grade level, barring significance differences or disability.

You're missing the point. According to the data, the gap has widened, and is now at its widest ever. The question is, why has the gap widened so much in just two decades? "Some kids just can't" doesn't suffice to explain why more kids can't in 2025 than in 2005.

Both PISA and NAEP results have reported poor math results for the US for many years.

Various forms of "new math" curricula have been tried without improvement. What we do not do is teach math effectively. Many students, probably most students, do not get enough math practice. If we were good at teaching then the after school math centers would not be spread from coast to coast.

Other countries with high math scores in PISA teach students math methods that always work and only teach one method per topic (e.g., Multiplication, division, algebra) so the students get enough practice to memorize that one method.

Anonymous wrote:Probably a mix of the above. The country has always been anti-intelligence, but recent perceived losses, e.g., towards immigrants, on world standing have caused a massive swing towards nationalism, xenophobia, and a general sense of unwarranted American superiority that is inherited and not earned through hard work (and intelligence).

Ok, with less vitriol I think we're getting split into two modes. The upper echelon is doing better than ever, but these are the kids that need no help. They can be the driver of innovation, but this is only 1% of the kids or something. The rest, are slouching towards an opiated phone-addicted existence.

Hopefully, they will not vaccinate ….

Anonymous wrote:Am I the only moderate to liberal educator who believes we can't really close the gap? Some kids are just not going to excel academically, and some are just never going to be able to read past a 4th or 5th grade level, no matter how much money or curriculum or tech we throw at the problem. I do think all kids going through the public school system should graduate being able to read at this 4th/5th grade level, barring significance differences or disability.

No. You are not alone. Some natural underclass will always exist regardless of what opportunities are given to them. Anyways, schooling is inadequate in USA to educate everyone.

Anonymous wrote:Am I the only moderate to liberal educator who believes we can't really close the gap? Some kids are just not going to excel academically, and some are just never going to be able to read past a 4th or 5th grade level, no matter how much money or curriculum or tech we throw at the problem. I do think all kids going through the public school system should graduate being able to read at this 4th/5th grade level, barring significance differences or disability.

There are just as many kids with low IQs as high ones so of course there will be students who take longer than the average to learn. Those kids don’t have disabilities so no IEPs for them. I’ve had kids who took two years to approach grade level when repeating the grade.

Anonymous wrote:Am I the only moderate to liberal educator who believes we can't really close the gap? Some kids are just not going to excel academically, and some are just never going to be able to read past a 4th or 5th grade level, no matter how much money or curriculum or tech we throw at the problem. I do think all kids going through the public school system should graduate being able to read at this 4th/5th grade level, barring significance differences or disability.

What a shame that someone without any disabilities would graduate from high school, yet only read at a fourth grade level. These students are surely capable of achieving more and are being shortchanged.

Am I the only moderate to liberal educator who believes we can't really close the gap? Some kids are just not going to excel academically, and some are just never going to be able to read past a 4th or 5th grade level, no matter how much money or curriculum or tech we throw at the problem. I do think all kids going through the public school system should graduate being able to read at this 4th/5th grade level, barring significance differences or disability.

Anonymous wrote:https://apnews.com/article/naep-reading-math-scores-12th-grade-c18d6e3fbc125f12948cc70cb85a520a

This feel like more than just a recent post pandemic problem.

Is it screens? A culture somewhat against intellectualism and experts?

It is progressives in education, implementing their political philosophy.

We would all love the achievement-gap to disappear or close. Progressives want to close the gap “from the top down,” by taking away opportunities for advanced-learners in public school.

Probably a mix of the above. The country has always been anti-intelligence, but recent perceived losses, e.g., towards immigrants, on world standing have caused a massive swing towards nationalism, xenophobia, and a general sense of unwarranted American superiority that is inherited and not earned through hard work (and intelligence).

Ok, with less vitriol I think we're getting split into two modes. The upper echelon is doing better than ever, but these are the kids that need no help. They can be the driver of innovation, but this is only 1% of the kids or something. The rest, are slouching towards an opiated phone-addicted existence.

https://apnews.com/article/naep-reading-math-scores-12th-grade-c18d6e3fbc125f12948cc70cb85a520a

This feel like more than just a recent post pandemic problem.

Is it screens? A culture somewhat against intellectualism and experts?