Anonymous wrote:I hate to be the B here, but do you make her clean up when she destroys things? I don’t doubt that it’s all real. But I wonder sometimes if parents don’t allow their kids ANY consequences for this type of behavior then they don’t ever have to think twice about it. Having to clean up by herself, having to pay for damages…there has to be some reason for her to stop. These types of behaviors didn’t happen as frequently when we were kids. I’ve talked with a lot of parents—special needs and NT and the frequency of this destructive behavior was just not something that happened. I think it’s because parents are more validating and understanding of feelings now, which can be amazing in some ways, but can also allow behaviors to continue that really shouldn’t. I do think that these kids can learn to gain control during these times, but they need to have a reason to do so.

I hope you find some solutions that work for your dd and your family. I think the parenting coach is on the right track. Do they talk about intermittent reinforcement? That concept can derail any efforts you try if on occasion you give in. For example if you text back sometimes and not other times you are reinforcing the fact that your response is random and your dd will push and push more to find out when that time will be. Maybe she can’t reach you during 9-12 and 1-5pm if you don’t respond then she won’t perseverate to find out how far she can push you to respond. I know this is tricky because you want to be there in case of emergency, but if your dh is home then maybe that can be her point person.

GL, I know this is incredibly hard.

Thanks - I don’t think you’re being a “B”. We haven’t made her clean up as consistently as we should so I will add that to the plan. When we have asked her to do this, she does it. She has no way to pay for damage though - she has not job and doesn’t get allowance or anything like that. She is getting a summer job this summer for the first time though, so I’ll tell her that she’ll need to pay for things she breaks moving forward. During the meltdown yesterday she threw my Kindle somewhere and I couldn’t find it. Before we went out to dinner last night I said “I need you to find my Kindle before we get home. It’s important to me.” When I got home, it as on my bed. When I went into her room to ask if she found it and where, she hid under her covers and wouldn’t answer. This is what kills me. She obviously knows this is unacceptable and is ashamed of it.

Anonymous wrote:I do not have ADHD but I had explosive, anxiety driven anger tantrums until I was in my 30’s. I’m a woman. I must say that now with perimenopause I’ve had the return of the anger, if not the all-out distructive behavior. I have found myself slamming down pots and being mean, though. I am normally a kind, gentle person and always have been. Hormones and brain chemistry are powerful.

However. We all have agency and choice in how we react to our anger. I didn’t stop tantruming until I truly understood it was unacceptable and that people were either afraid or disdainful of how I behaved when I was out of control. I had to really and truly want to change. It is so incredibly hard to control your behavior in the split second before it explodes that you need to be super motivated to do it.

Have you asked her to come up with a plan with you to mitigate outbursts? It might start with a word she uses to interrupt her thinking as it escalates - a word she can say, you can say to her, that also triggers her to do something else for a while as the anger dissipates enough to control it. Watch an ASMR video, take a walk, whatever she thinks might help. What does she do at school when her frustration flares?

And yes, you need to help her see that her behavior is not okay. NOT OKAY. You will love her always, but others won’t, and you won’t tolerate it either. Decide what you will do in response. Ignore is fine. A look, shrug, and walk away might be even more to the point.

Thank you for sharing this. Very helpful.

- OP

Have you considered working with a psychiatrist to try meds again? My 18 year old is benefiting enormously from meds that didn't work for her when she was younger. Latuda and Zoloft are really helping with the emotional regulation issues you describe.

This is very familiar to me. I will say it took about 9 months for the ignoring and reinforcing positive behavior to work. DD was 15 at the time. We also required some repair of damage - eg., patching drywall with DH or paying for broken items, and working into earn that money if DD didn’t already have some. And reinforcing the positive behavior is really really important.

We did eventually do a full DBT program with a parent component as a PP mentioned, but the physically destructive and aggressive behavior was pretty well controlled by that time.

Anonymous wrote:You didn’t get the right therapy. You say you got “parent coaching” but what you needed was more intensive behavioral therapy. The idea that your reaction is reinforcing her behavior should not be new to you. At this point you need to get her into DBT with a parent component.

That’s funny because you’re 100% right. We have had therapy for YEARS that didn’t work at all. Now we actually are in DBT with a parent component (and coaching) and it is working but slowly and this is the most severe and persistent issue.

I do not have ADHD but I had explosive, anxiety driven anger tantrums until I was in my 30’s. I’m a woman. I must say that now with perimenopause I’ve had the return of the anger, if not the all-out distructive behavior. I have found myself slamming down pots and being mean, though. I am normally a kind, gentle person and always have been. Hormones and brain chemistry are powerful.

However. We all have agency and choice in how we react to our anger. I didn’t stop tantruming until I truly understood it was unacceptable and that people were either afraid or disdainful of how I behaved when I was out of control. I had to really and truly want to change. It is so incredibly hard to control your behavior in the split second before it explodes that you need to be super motivated to do it.

Have you asked her to come up with a plan with you to mitigate outbursts? It might start with a word she uses to interrupt her thinking as it escalates - a word she can say, you can say to her, that also triggers her to do something else for a while as the anger dissipates enough to control it. Watch an ASMR video, take a walk, whatever she thinks might help. What does she do at school when her frustration flares?

And yes, you need to help her see that her behavior is not okay. NOT OKAY. You will love her always, but others won’t, and you won’t tolerate it either. Decide what you will do in response. Ignore is fine. A look, shrug, and walk away might be even more to the point.

You didn’t get the right therapy. You say you got “parent coaching” but what you needed was more intensive behavioral therapy. The idea that your reaction is reinforcing her behavior should not be new to you. At this point you need to get her into DBT with a parent component.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Puberty wreaks havoc on brain chemistry. She will get better as she finishes going through puberty. Tell her this is a phase. Repeatedly, so it sinks in.

This is OP and I'm not sure. She got her period at 10, she was doing this at 5, and she's 17 (does puberty last 7 years?).

Puberty lasts a long time these days. But it’s not just that—their brains are still growing and changing rapidly. Until 25. Buckle up.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How long have you been working with the parenting coach?

About a year but we’ve targeted other things (phone use, hygiene), that were higher priorities at the time because this had calmed down for a while. It can calm down for very long stretches.

I should add that we did implement a system where she “earns” some of her phone time for respectful behavior (no screaming at people, hitting, throwing things) with the aim at teaching her to regulate before it gets to the point of no return. But that was dormant for a month or two because we were traveling etc and the meltdowns weren’t happening and we’ve reinstated it.

I hate to be the B here, but do you make her clean up when she destroys things? I don’t doubt that it’s all real. But I wonder sometimes if parents don’t allow their kids ANY consequences for this type of behavior then they don’t ever have to think twice about it. Having to clean up by herself, having to pay for damages…there has to be some reason for her to stop. These types of behaviors didn’t happen as frequently when we were kids. I’ve talked with a lot of parents—special needs and NT and the frequency of this destructive behavior was just not something that happened. I think it’s because parents are more validating and understanding of feelings now, which can be amazing in some ways, but can also allow behaviors to continue that really shouldn’t. I do think that these kids can learn to gain control during these times, but they need to have a reason to do so.

I hope you find some solutions that work for your dd and your family. I think the parenting coach is on the right track. Do they talk about intermittent reinforcement? That concept can derail any efforts you try if on occasion you give in. For example if you text back sometimes and not other times you are reinforcing the fact that your response is random and your dd will push and push more to find out when that time will be. Maybe she can’t reach you during 9-12 and 1-5pm if you don’t respond then she won’t perseverate to find out how far she can push you to respond. I know this is tricky because you want to be there in case of emergency, but if your dh is home then maybe that can be her point person.

GL, I know this is incredibly hard.

Anonymous wrote:How long have you been working with the parenting coach?

About a year but we’ve targeted other things (phone use, hygiene), that were higher priorities at the time because this had calmed down for a while. It can calm down for very long stretches.

How long have you been working with the parenting coach?

Anonymous wrote:Puberty wreaks havoc on brain chemistry. She will get better as she finishes going through puberty. Tell her this is a phase. Repeatedly, so it sinks in.

This is OP and I'm not sure. She got her period at 10, she was doing this at 5, and she's 17 (does puberty last 7 years?).

Puberty wreaks havoc on brain chemistry. She will get better as she finishes going through puberty. Tell her this is a phase. Repeatedly, so it sinks in.

DD (now 17) has made *incredible* progress in the last few years through therapy, medication changes, and us having excellent parent coaching. We finally got her showering, she's in the right school for her and doing well, has career goals and a few close friends at school (although she rarely sees them outside of school, etc.)

But the one persisting issue is horrible meltdowns she's been having since she was a toddler. They have had a similar pattern since then: something triggers her (usually a reaction to her behavior), she escalates which begins with yelling and evolves into throwing/destroying things, hitting people, etc. They last about 20 minutes but are incredibly disruptive/destructive, then she feels remorse and starts to cry, and then it's over. The frequency has varied over the years from once a week to once every few months. The hitting is infrequent but the throwing/destroying things is more frequent. She very rarely does it at school and has never hit anyone there. Although she has thrown things in a mild way (flipping her lunch off her desk once, and throwing a water bottle once but not at anyone). She does cry and get upset at school fairly regularly but it doesn't escalate like it does at home.

I have been practicing a different reaction per my parent coach's instructions, and I believe her that part of this is that our reaction has inadvertently reinforced this behavior and it is "relational" rather than "regulational." But yesterday and the past few times I felt myself thinking "will this EVER end?" It started with her asking me over text while I was at a meeting to take her to the doctor because she thinks her vocal chords are strained (as background, her vocal chords are strained from her last meltdown a week ago and she's a singer so she is very anxious about it). I replied that if her voice isn't better in two weeks (and gave a date) I would take her, but that I think she just needs to rest it a while. I put my phone back into my bag because I was at a meeting. When I took it back out 30 minutes later she had written me 42 texts and called me several times - screaming and crying over voicemail, texting that I'm a horrible mother and person, etc. This is the common reaction. I tried to ignore it because that's what I'm told by the parent coach. I intermittently texted back "honey, I answered this already, I can't text anymore." My husband was home and she proceeded to throw things down the stairs, hit him when he tried to stop her, broke a picture frame, etc. About 20 minutes later she was remorseful and calmed down.

She's on no medication. We tried 9 different ADHD meds over the years (stimulants and non-stimulants), and all of them made this worse and more frequent, and did not address the inattention or impulsivity related to her ADHD. She was also on a SSRI for many years that made her sluggish and gain weight, and this got a little better but didn't stop completely. We eventually changed to Effexor (we also tried Prozac and Abilify during that time which she didn't tolerate at all). She was on Effexor for a few years but lost ALL motivation. She didn't melt down quite as much, but sometimes, and stayed in bed a lot of the time and was negative and didn't care about anything. It was a bear to get off of and she now doesn't want to go the med route again and frankly neither do I.

Has anyone experienced this with their teen/adult child and found a solution? Did changing your reaction work? My biggest fear is if she can't stop this before it escalates this severely, she will lose relationships, jobs, etc. when she's older. I also just feel like I can't take it anymore, it's so upsetting.