As someone with European family, just, boy. I mean some of my cousins' kids are well behaved but some of them definitely are not.

Anonymous wrote:They probably yell at them and borderline abuse them in private. So the kids would never act up.
Then the manners are learned and eventually, there’s no abuse, but they always know deep down they can’t act like a punk.

Contrast US kids who are coddled. I prefer coddled, free and expressive kids.

This is such an icky and lazy excuse just to not parents your kids. "Oh the teens are polite and more mature? It's abuse!" What?!?!?!?!

I mean, it's somewhat of a rash generalization but it seems obvious: less processed food, more walking, slower pace, less corrupted by Kardashian-like culture and less prevalent social media, more tradition...and they're not dealing with a time change (you are). Also don't forget that many european countries begin tracking kids pretty early, so it's likely that the families you see who can afford these vacations have kids who are just high achievers.

They probably yell at them and borderline abuse them in private. So the kids would never act up.
Then the manners are learned and eventually, there’s no abuse, but they always know deep down they can’t act like a punk.

Contrast US kids who are coddled. I prefer coddled, free and expressive kids.

God wait until you see what it’s like in Japan. Moms in perfect makeup , waif thin, having cake and tea with each other while their toddlers (!!!!) sit quietly in a high chair coloring , AND a baby quietly sleeping in the pram. I thought to myself if Japanese can do it so can I, and I consider myself fairly strict in terms of my parenting style. But my toddler is a wild banshee anytime I try to take her out to a cafe or restaurant and will not sit still.

I wonder what’s their secret to stay good looking. Whenever I travel to Italy I also spot the mom of multiple tween wearing her designer blazer, perfect hair and baby face. Aaarrh!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m an American who spends time in Stockholm and have observed this too, OP. I also notice a related phenomenon with family dogs when they are taken out in public. Swedish city-dwelling dogs have -excellent- manners and temperament compared to DC dogs — even the same breeds. It’s like they are all highly trained service dogs for the vision impaired. Calm and confident, never leash pulling or inappropriately interested in every stimulus.

With both kids and dogs, a large part of the presentation has to be expectations set at birth. But genetics must have something to do with it because you almost never see crying fussy babies in store or errands, which blows my mind. They’re all calm.

Considering how many Americans have European ethnicity (since America is still majority of white, most of us) it cannot be genetically related. It definitely has something to do with culture and society

You are undoubtedly right. I (PP) work closely with a lot of expats at World Bank and IMF who are recent arrivals, not yet “corrupted” by American mores, ane these WB-IMF families with relatively many (!) children are still calm, happy and relatively well-behaved compared to their direct American counterparts.

OP you did an excellent job of describing the subtle details of the MC/UMC western Euro family!

Anonymous wrote:I’m an American who spends time in Stockholm and have observed this too, OP. I also notice a related phenomenon with family dogs when they are taken out in public. Swedish city-dwelling dogs have -excellent- manners and temperament compared to DC dogs — even the same breeds. It’s like they are all highly trained service dogs for the vision impaired. Calm and confident, never leash pulling or inappropriately interested in every stimulus.

With both kids and dogs, a large part of the presentation has to be expectations set at birth. But genetics must have something to do with it because you almost never see crying fussy babies in store or errands, which blows my mind. They’re all calm.

Considering how many Americans have European ethnicity (since America is still majority of white, most of us) it cannot be genetically related. It definitely has something to do with culture and society

I’m an American who spends time in Stockholm and have observed this too, OP. I also notice a related phenomenon with family dogs when they are taken out in public. Swedish city-dwelling dogs have -excellent- manners and temperament compared to DC dogs — even the same breeds. It’s like they are all highly trained service dogs for the vision impaired. Calm and confident, never leash pulling or inappropriately interested in every stimulus.

With both kids and dogs, a large part of the presentation has to be expectations set at birth. But genetics must have something to do with it because you almost never see crying fussy babies in store or errands, which blows my mind. They’re all calm.

I’m American but my father was from Europe. I was raised to be extremely well behaved. My father was very strict and did not tolerate bad behavior, especially not in public. We were taught to sit still, be quiet, not talk loudly, not play with our hair, or touch our clothes, etc. We were also taught to dress appropriately. And from a young age I was taken to the theater, opera, ballet, museums, church, and on occasion nice restaurants where I not only learned how to be in those environments but also practiced good behavior.

Hmmm not sure where you're getting this... vacation in Southeast Asia and you will see plenty of young European kids running amok and the parents not doing anything, lots of screaming and shouting.

But to that point, I think that's the major difference between American and European parenting. I live in Europe and it's not uncommon to see children riding the train alone- and I am not talking about 13 year olds, I'm talking about 7/8 year olds. It's also not uncommon to be out at a restaurant with parents sipping wine and the children are running around in a park nearby. IMO parenting is way more "hands off" than in America and the kids are expected to grow up earlier, have MUCH more autonomy and an expectation of that behavior. Also Europe is more confrontational, so if you do have a child that acts badly it wouldnt be considered that strange or wrong for another adult to come by and "correct" them by speaking to them harshly... whereas I think in America kids are kind of coddled, have extended periods of kind of "helpless childhood" and certainly it would be a faux pas for another adult to discipline a child.

Im an immigrwnt (moved to us at 10) but my kids and husband are American and they are like this. Except the 9am part in Europe as the time change is brutal on them. At home they are up and pleasant at 7. A lot of it is expectations of behavior, non tolerance of whining, rowdiness and loud voices in public. We let kids get away with so much in the US. We specifically do not do activities that will infringe on family dinner time so my kids know how to sit for an hour at a table and talk to us. Early ES kids.

We are in Germany right now. Just spent a few days with friends with kids in Zurich. I think American kids ( or dmv area kids) are so busy all the time compared to here. If it’s not activities it’s full day childcare, plus the need to just be go go go. It takes a toll.

We are in Morocco on vacation with our tween kids, and are staying in nice (but not fancy) family-friendly riads and hotels. Essentially everyone else is European - mostly French, Spanish, and German, with occasional Belgians or Scandinavians (which I know because they exchange brief pleasantries with one another around the pool in excellent English).

They are all attractive (moms with 4 kids and older teens are wearing bikinis - and look great!), have between 2-4 extremely well-behaved children, and the kids are relatively quiet but smiling and happy. The kids entertain themselves (in the pool, reading, playing cards), don’t pester their parents (who are reading actual books, not playing with their phones), and there is little to no crying or whining, except some age-appropriate crying from a baby - who was immediately picked up lovingly and tended to by her teenaged sister. The kids eat dinner with excellent manners, clean their plate, and the whole family sits and talks animatedly for the ~1.5 hours it takes to be served dinner (which doesn’t start until 8 or 8:30 PM).

And then the perfect European families are all up bright and early looking fabulous (parents and kids), having just finished breakfast when we straggle in bleary eyed at 9 AM.

I am so fascinated and intimidated. Every single Euro-family appears so calm, happy, well-behaved, and well-mannered, and looks great, (without appearing to need sleep). No one ever seems frazzled or even appears to get annoyed. How is this possible?