Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you aren’t qualified then you aren’t qualified. The purpose of these searches is to protect American workers—not the opposite. If companies weren’t required to show this, they’d just hire cheap foreign labor without a second thought.

The purpose of the fourth amendment is to protect Americans from our government pulling shenanigans like this on us.

Is there any evidence that these labor rules are actually protecting Americans. IMO they are just using the wage categories to set artificially low wages. EG my title is Analyst III, they pay analyst three $XXX because they are in this labor category, which they set through this crooked LCA process. If they paid me more, they would have to pay everyone in that labor category more. At least unions have a representative. If the labor rules are so good at protecting us, why do they have to keep it a secret? That is the point of the fourth amendment, not that the government can't do searches, but that the government can't do secret searches, without warrant.

Where is the warrant?

It’s not a secret search by the government. Private industry is surveying the market, and sharing information with the government in exchange for beneficial regulatory treatment. If that’s unconstitutional, you’re going to want to talk to the president about what he’s been up to.

A) The government requires that it be kept secret. At no time during the interview are they permitted to tell us that it is a PERM/LCA search.

B) The government is using the information from third parties.

Conceivably, if they aren't actually collecting information about me, then how are they protecting my job with the collected information? The rub is for me there is no assurance that the third party is actually collecting the information correctly filling out the forms correctly asking only permissible questions, not playing ticky tacky games with spammy emails and text messages. They have lawyers filling out the forms, but where are my lawyers and when do they get a chance to cross examine? This is the point of the fourth amendment.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you aren’t qualified then you aren’t qualified. The purpose of these searches is to protect American workers—not the opposite. If companies weren’t required to show this, they’d just hire cheap foreign labor without a second thought.

The purpose of the fourth amendment is to protect Americans from our government pulling shenanigans like this on us.

Is there any evidence that these labor rules are actually protecting Americans. IMO they are just using the wage categories to set artificially low wages. EG my title is Analyst III, they pay analyst three $XXX because they are in this labor category, which they set through this crooked LCA process. If they paid me more, they would have to pay everyone in that labor category more. At least unions have a representative. If the labor rules are so good at protecting us, why do they have to keep it a secret? That is the point of the fourth amendment, not that the government can't do searches, but that the government can't do secret searches, without warrant.

Where is the warrant?

It’s not a secret search by the government. Private industry is surveying the market, and sharing information with the government in exchange for beneficial regulatory treatment. If that’s unconstitutional, you’re going to want to talk to the president about what he’s been up to.

Anonymous wrote:If you aren’t qualified then you aren’t qualified. The purpose of these searches is to protect American workers—not the opposite. If companies weren’t required to show this, they’d just hire cheap foreign labor without a second thought.

The purpose of the fourth amendment is to protect Americans from our government pulling shenanigans like this on us.

Is there any evidence that these labor rules are actually protecting Americans. IMO they are just using the wage categories to set artificially low wages. EG my title is Analyst III, they pay analyst three $XXX because they are in this labor category, which they set through this crooked LCA process. If they paid me more, they would have to pay everyone in that labor category more. At least unions have a representative. If the labor rules are so good at protecting us, why do they have to keep it a secret? That is the point of the fourth amendment, not that the government can't do searches, but that the government can't do secret searches, without warrant.

Where is the warrant?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How else can you prove there isn’t a large enough pool of applicants in the US to justify the visa? You need evidence that there are no qualified US applicants applying for the jobs.

I don't think a large pool of job applicants is a constitutional right.

I don't think you understand what this thread is about.

If you aren’t qualified then you aren’t qualified. The purpose of these searches is to protect American workers—not the opposite. If companies weren’t required to show this, they’d just hire cheap foreign labor without a second thought.

Anonymous wrote:Trying to create a conspiracy theory? Repeating an existing conspiracy theory?
Which is it OP?

It's not a conspiracy, when they are actually out to get you.

Trying to create a conspiracy theory? Repeating an existing conspiracy theory?
Which is it OP?

Anonymous wrote:How else can you prove there isn’t a large enough pool of applicants in the US to justify the visa? You need evidence that there are no qualified US applicants applying for the jobs.

I don't think a large pool of job applicants is a constitutional right.

How else can you prove there isn’t a large enough pool of applicants in the US to justify the visa? You need evidence that there are no qualified US applicants applying for the jobs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, can you elaborate on what an LCA/PERM search is? I googled but it isn't clear to me what specifically you're talking about.

I'm not familiar with that term, but I'm a lawyer that litigates Fourth Amendment issues frequently and I'm happy to give you any insight I have.

As I said, I am a bit naive, being an applicant or job seeker myself. PERM and LCA searches are searches that companies have to do to bring in foreign workers. They have various different functions. The PERM process if fairly clear. If a person on an H-1b wants to convert their visa to green card they have to prove that they won't be displacing local workers, so they have to do a PERM search. Basically, they are required to try to recruit people, though there is no real job their they post job listings and do interviews. Trying to prove that the job applicants don't exist.

I found out about these through these two DOJ cases where Meta and Apple settled on charges discrimination:

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/justice-labor-departments-reach-settlements-facebook-resolving-claims-discrimination-against
https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/justice-department-secures-25-million-landmark-agreement-apple-resolve-employment

I believe the LCA process is a little different. Companies aren't really required to prove there are no candidates prior to bringing in an H-1B, however they are required to set prevailing wages. Here, the companies have an incentive to prove that the wages should be low, but they do the same kind of job search. These actually impact wages in the area.

Notice how in all of these cases, they are "searching" the job market doing interviews, on behalf of the government and the job applicants are Naive. Some of these interviews are essentially hostile. EG "Do you or not know X Y or Z." "Have you ever..."

As you can see in the DOJ cases companies have cheated this process extensively, mostly because would be applicants are never informed as to what is going on. How is that constitutional? Does the constitution only apply to criminal surveillance or something?

This is seriously f-ed up. It means private citizens are misled and used and their time and mental health is taxed on interviews that don't have any real job positions behind it. This should be illegal and brought forth as abuse.

Anonymous wrote:OP, can you elaborate on what an LCA/PERM search is? I googled but it isn't clear to me what specifically you're talking about.

I'm not familiar with that term, but I'm a lawyer that litigates Fourth Amendment issues frequently and I'm happy to give you any insight I have.

As I said, I am a bit naive, being an applicant or job seeker myself. PERM and LCA searches are searches that companies have to do to bring in foreign workers. They have various different functions. The PERM process if fairly clear. If a person on an H-1b wants to convert their visa to green card they have to prove that they won't be displacing local workers, so they have to do a PERM search. Basically, they are required to try to recruit people, though there is no real job their they post job listings and do interviews. Trying to prove that the job applicants don't exist.

I found out about these through these two DOJ cases where Meta and Apple settled on charges discrimination:

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/justice-labor-departments-reach-settlements-facebook-resolving-claims-discrimination-against
https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/justice-department-secures-25-million-landmark-agreement-apple-resolve-employment

I believe the LCA process is a little different. Companies aren't really required to prove there are no candidates prior to bringing in an H-1B, however they are required to set prevailing wages. Here, the companies have an incentive to prove that the wages should be low, but they do the same kind of job search. These actually impact wages in the area.

Notice how in all of these cases, they are "searching" the job market doing interviews, on behalf of the government and the job applicants are Naive. Some of these interviews are essentially hostile. EG "Do you or not know X Y or Z." "Have you ever..."

As you can see in the DOJ cases companies have cheated this process extensively, mostly because would be applicants are never informed as to what is going on. How is that constitutional? Does the constitution only apply to criminal surveillance or something?

OP, can you elaborate on what an LCA/PERM search is? I googled but it isn't clear to me what specifically you're talking about.

I'm not familiar with that term, but I'm a lawyer that litigates Fourth Amendment issues frequently and I'm happy to give you any insight I have.

Still no answer.

No one has problems with this.

Why are secret searches that the Department of Labor requires of private companies when they fill out LCA or PERM considered constitutional?

Coming from the job applicant side I am not a lawyer so please forgive my terminology. However, I have deduced several things.

1) Under certain circumstances companies are required to do searches, to prove that there are no willing or able applicants.

2) They require that these searches be done secretly.

3) There are no actual jobs for the applicant, they are just surveilling people.

4) Under certain circumstances they are required to report back to the government what they find.

From my point of view this is no different than illegal surveillance without warrant. They have lawyers filling out the paperwork, but there is no opportunity to cross examine.

I have attempted to report recruiting inconsistencies, and this is the response that I received.

The Office of Foreign Labor Certification (OFLC) Permanent Labor Certification Program (PERM) acknowledges receipt of your email and it has been forwarded to the appropriate parties for review. Please note that the OFLC can only respond to inquiries from employers or their authorized representatives listed on the submitted Form ETA-9089. As you are not listed as the attorney of record nor as the agent/representative or an employer in the PERM system, the OFLC cannot provide you with any information regarding this or any other application. Although OFLC will consider any documented information provided to ensure program integrity, please know that the OFLC is not able to provide any information if action has been or will be taken or the final determination in connection with any application. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Permanent Program Help Desk #9