Anonymous wrote:

Mambojambo2024 wrote:I hear you. The decision to go abroad shouldn’t be done simply for financial reasons. I do wrestle with that thought….but I am leaving this decision up to my DS. Sure, we would save $250k plus over 4 years and this could give my DS an incredible head start in his life. But it shouldn’t be the primary motivation if the independence/maturity, initiative to understand why the kids wants to go abroad is not there to begin with.

We have also known 3 kids locally that attended UK schools simply for financial reasons. The results were all over the place. Not Oxbridge but Russell group unis. One couldn’t survive and returned year two after not adapting to their Lecture/Tutor system where 90% of your grade is one test at the end of the year. The other one is doing well and is graduating from Exeter in May with a degree in Marine Science and is currently applying to Masters programs all over the world. The 3rd one we know went to Bristol. Graduated in C. Engineering and is now back in the US working at a large international Engineering Construction firm. This one absolutely hated it when he was there. But now that he has been back for 2 years, he constantly talks about Bristol and how amazing it was….short memory I guess.

My concern is more with how US employers look at EU Business Schools. ESCP is not a UK school. It is a French school, that has a London campus and awards a UK degree.

When I look at say, a school like Tulane and its Freeman Business school (not picking on Tulane, amazing school, just an example of a private t50/t60), I have a tough time from just a Financial standpoint to find the value/benefit at $80k/yr vs ESCP at $56k for all 3 years.

Not sure but I would guess an "EU Business School" is probably worse than a UK school for the reasons mentioned above. It's even less relevant to US employers than UK schools, which are at least in the English speaking world. For employers well versed in international universities and different cultures/very international/global companies I assume it would be fine, though.

I would absolutely go with Tulane over this French school if your DC wants to do business in the U.S., ESPECIALLY if it's business in the southeast. Tulane is known to be a selective school with a great reputation in the U.S.

Husband went to Bocconi. His experience has been fine, but it was graduate school. Not undergrad. There are excellent non UK business schools in Europe that rival anything a t60 would offer in terms of academics. Most of these schools teach in English.

As for the Tulane example, we don’t live in the Southeast. It was just an example of an expensive private US school. But the fact remains that if you can save $250k, I could theorically put that $250k savings into a a fund and DS would have $300k Plus to start his life in the US after graduate school. Maybe to start a business, or whatever….On the one hand, I’;m worried about his decision, on the other hand, I would have loved the opportunity to have a $300k fund to start my life after grad school without the pressures of having to take the best paying job after school vs the “best job for you” .

Anonymous wrote:American Paris HEC Diplômé here.

First, know that EU professors don't see their job as requiring coddling to students, any students. So expect that he will not be nurtured and he will be expected to act like an adult from day 1.

Second, he will have no problem getting a job in the EU. (I had multiple offers.)

Third and maybe most importantly, an EU degree will limit his options in the US. (It did to me.) While Mckinsey will recognize his degree, a rando HR employee at a [Regional Name or even National] bank won't. Nevertheless, he can overcome this by getting a grad degree in the US. Very typical path is Paris HEC -> consulting analyst-> top 10 US MBA-> consulting associate. Good luck and let us know what he decides.

All very good points. Thank you for the input. Husband went to grad school at Bocconi. Then right back to the US. Clearly the larger US multifunctional consulting groups/companies all know those EU degrees. But you are prob correct about regional companies.

At this point, he is considering the Paris/Turin/London ESCP option and then hopefully get into a 1-yr MS at Imperial or any of other programs associated with that school before coming back to the US, if he does come back.

The problem is not DS….it is me. I’m not yet 100% sold on the idea of having him spend the next 3-4 years in Europe…

Mambojambo2024 wrote:I hear you. The decision to go abroad shouldn’t be done simply for financial reasons. I do wrestle with that thought….but I am leaving this decision up to my DS. Sure, we would save $250k plus over 4 years and this could give my DS an incredible head start in his life. But it shouldn’t be the primary motivation if the independence/maturity, initiative to understand why the kids wants to go abroad is not there to begin with.

We have also known 3 kids locally that attended UK schools simply for financial reasons. The results were all over the place. Not Oxbridge but Russell group unis. One couldn’t survive and returned year two after not adapting to their Lecture/Tutor system where 90% of your grade is one test at the end of the year. The other one is doing well and is graduating from Exeter in May with a degree in Marine Science and is currently applying to Masters programs all over the world. The 3rd one we know went to Bristol. Graduated in C. Engineering and is now back in the US working at a large international Engineering Construction firm. This one absolutely hated it when he was there. But now that he has been back for 2 years, he constantly talks about Bristol and how amazing it was….short memory I guess.

My concern is more with how US employers look at EU Business Schools. ESCP is not a UK school. It is a French school, that has a London campus and awards a UK degree.

When I look at say, a school like Tulane and its Freeman Business school (not picking on Tulane, amazing school, just an example of a private t50/t60), I have a tough time from just a Financial standpoint to find the value/benefit at $80k/yr vs ESCP at $56k for all 3 years.

Not sure but I would guess an "EU Business School" is probably worse than a UK school for the reasons mentioned above. It's even less relevant to US employers than UK schools, which are at least in the English speaking world. For employers well versed in international universities and different cultures/very international/global companies I assume it would be fine, though.

I would absolutely go with Tulane over this French school if your DC wants to do business in the U.S., ESPECIALLY if it's business in the southeast. Tulane is known to be a selective school with a great reputation in the U.S.

Pp here - although I loved my time at the HEC, I wouldn't consider it for my DD. She still makes presents for her HS teachers and is not ready to be an adult yet.

I hear you. The decision to go abroad shouldn’t be done simply for financial reasons. I do wrestle with that thought….but I am leaving this decision up to my DS. Sure, we would save $250k plus over 4 years and this could give my DS an incredible head start in his life. But it shouldn’t be the primary motivation if the independence/maturity, initiative to understand why the kids wants to go abroad is not there to begin with.

We have also known 3 kids locally that attended UK schools simply for financial reasons. The results were all over the place. Not Oxbridge but Russell group unis. One couldn’t survive and returned year two after not adapting to their Lecture/Tutor system where 90% of your grade is one test at the end of the year. The other one is doing well and is graduating from Exeter in May with a degree in Marine Science and is currently applying to Masters programs all over the world. The 3rd one we know went to Bristol. Graduated in C. Engineering and is now back in the US working at a large international Engineering Construction firm. This one absolutely hated it when he was there. But now that he has been back for 2 years, he constantly talks about Bristol and how amazing it was….short memory I guess.

My concern is more with how US employers look at EU Business Schools. ESCP is not a UK school. It is a French school, that has a London campus and awards a UK degree.

When I look at say, a school like Tulane and its Freeman Business school (not picking on Tulane, amazing school, just an example of a private t50/t60), I have a tough time from just a Financial standpoint to find the value/benefit at $80k/yr vs ESCP at $56k for all 3 years.

Anonymous wrote:

Mambojambo2024 wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know two girls who went to the UK for school. Both schools are great but not Oxbridge. Both went to a t5 NOVA HS. One is living in the UK working for a university in some sort of administrative role (secretary or something). The other is living with her parents at home and does some work as an artist.

Generally, I feel like peers who went to selective US colleges (roughly t40 or 50 before US News methodology change) were better off compared to those who went abroad, (especially if they planned to return to the US) with few exceptions.

This is interesting and odd. It takes a different kind of kid to forgo a US education to go to UK or Europe. If your kid is not an independent, motivated go getter, he/she just wont last in a UK/EU university environment that lacks the baby handholding we see in the US.

So it is hard to believe someone who had the drive, initiative and independence to go to school abroad, is now a “secretary”. That tells me this kid, whether going to a t50 in the US or anywhere else in the world, would have probably end up under employed anyway. Though to assign the under employment of this kid (if that is indeed the case) to a decision to attend a UK school vs a t50 US school.

DP. I wouldn’t necessarily assume that. A lot depends on the visa/immigration status of the kid, as well as their degree. Lots of American kids want to stay in Europe when their schooling is done and they will accept under employment if that’s the only path available.

I did grad school in the UK. I love the idea of going abroad for school but it comes with downsides. I definitely think there is a strong possibility your kid will want to stay when he’s done. He’s got an EU passport. His friends will all be there. He will be immersed in the culture and language(s). Coming back to the US is hard at that age.

It’s also tough when you lack career services for the US. He will need to navigate his way back on his own, versus the career services that a good US university could provide. That’s not an impossible thing but his connections will be in Europe. He may find it easier to stay there. A one year MSc in the UK may help but, even then, I would be looking at schools with strong name recognition in the US.

^^^Oh and since you asked specifically, I’m not familiar with ESCP even though I know quite a few schools in Europe.

American Paris HEC Diplômé here.

First, know that EU professors don't see their job as requiring coddling to students, any students. So expect that he will not be nurtured and he will be expected to act like an adult from day 1.

Second, he will have no problem getting a job in the EU. (I had multiple offers.)

Third and maybe most importantly, an EU degree will limit his options in the US. (It did to me.) While Mckinsey will recognize his degree, a rando HR employee at a [Regional Name or even National] bank won't. Nevertheless, he can overcome this by getting a grad degree in the US. Very typical path is Paris HEC -> consulting analyst-> top 10 US MBA-> consulting associate. Good luck and let us know what he decides.

Mambojambo2024 wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know two girls who went to the UK for school. Both schools are great but not Oxbridge. Both went to a t5 NOVA HS. One is living in the UK working for a university in some sort of administrative role (secretary or something). The other is living with her parents at home and does some work as an artist.

Generally, I feel like peers who went to selective US colleges (roughly t40 or 50 before US News methodology change) were better off compared to those who went abroad, (especially if they planned to return to the US) with few exceptions.

This is interesting and odd. It takes a different kind of kid to forgo a US education to go to UK or Europe. If your kid is not an independent, motivated go getter, he/she just wont last in a UK/EU university environment that lacks the baby handholding we see in the US.

So it is hard to believe someone who had the drive, initiative and independence to go to school abroad, is now a “secretary”. That tells me this kid, whether going to a t50 in the US or anywhere else in the world, would have probably end up under employed anyway. Though to assign the under employment of this kid (if that is indeed the case) to a decision to attend a UK school vs a t50 US school.

DP. I wouldn’t necessarily assume that. A lot depends on the visa/immigration status of the kid, as well as their degree. Lots of American kids want to stay in Europe when their schooling is done and they will accept under employment if that’s the only path available.

I did grad school in the UK. I love the idea of going abroad for school but it comes with downsides. I definitely think there is a strong possibility your kid will want to stay when he’s done. He’s got an EU passport. His friends will all be there. He will be immersed in the culture and language(s). Coming back to the US is hard at that age.

It’s also tough when you lack career services for the US. He will need to navigate his way back on his own, versus the career services that a good US university could provide. That’s not an impossible thing but his connections will be in Europe. He may find it easier to stay there. A one year MSc in the UK may help but, even then, I would be looking at schools with strong name recognition in the US.

Mambojambo2024 wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know two girls who went to the UK for school. Both schools are great but not Oxbridge. Both went to a t5 NOVA HS. One is living in the UK working for a university in some sort of administrative role (secretary or something). The other is living with her parents at home and does some work as an artist.

Generally, I feel like peers who went to selective US colleges (roughly t40 or 50 before US News methodology change) were better off compared to those who went abroad, (especially if they planned to return to the US) with few exceptions.

This is interesting and odd. It takes a different kind of kid to forgo a US education to go to UK or Europe. If your kid is not an independent, motivated go getter, he/she just wont last in a UK/EU university environment that lacks the baby handholding we see in the US.

So it is hard to believe someone who had the drive, initiative and independence to go to school abroad, is now a “secretary”. That tells me this kid, whether going to a t50 in the US or anywhere else in the world, would have probably end up under employed anyway. Though to assign the under employment of this kid (if that is indeed the case) to a decision to attend a UK school vs a t50 US school.

It's definitely possible she would've been in a similar position no matter what. This said, she was extremely involved in HS and driven. She won a national humanities competition (not scrips spelling bee level but still a laudable achievement). And I should mention that i'm not exactly sure of her title. I just know it's an administrative position (could be called "coordinator" or something).

I think in both of their cases, finances were a primary motivation. As you say yourself, tuition is much cheaper and students can graduate in three years.

Neither of them wanted the rah-rah of football games. I think the culture of many large american colleges might've turned them off to US institutions and on to UK ones.

I don't think it was the case for either of them that going abroad indicated some sort of hyper-independent gumption absent in their domestic college-going peers.

Anonymous wrote:I know two girls who went to the UK for school. Both schools are great but not Oxbridge. Both went to a t5 NOVA HS. One is living in the UK working for a university in some sort of administrative role (secretary or something). The other is living with her parents at home and does some work as an artist.

Generally, I feel like peers who went to selective US colleges (roughly t40 or 50 before US News methodology change) were better off compared to those who went abroad, (especially if they planned to return to the US) with few exceptions.

This is interesting and odd. It takes a different kind of kid to forgo a US education to go to UK or Europe. If your kid is not an independent, motivated go getter, he/she just wont last in a UK/EU university environment that lacks the baby handholding we see in the US.

So it is hard to believe someone who had the drive, initiative and independence to go to school abroad, is now a “secretary”. That tells me this kid, whether going to a t50 in the US or anywhere else in the world, would have probably end up under employed anyway. Though to assign the under employment of this kid (if that is indeed the case) to a decision to attend a UK school vs a t50 US school.

I know two girls who went to the UK for school. Both schools are great but not Oxbridge. Both went to a t5 NOVA HS. One is living in the UK working for a university in some sort of administrative role (secretary or something). The other is living with her parents at home and does some work as an artist.

Generally, I feel like peers who went to selective US colleges (roughly t40 or 50 before US News methodology change) were better off compared to those who went abroad, (especially if they planned to return to the US) with few exceptions.

Anonymous wrote:I

My son is finishing up at a comparable program for comparable reasons. We don’t yet know who any student who took a similar route who’s finished and gone on to work, grad school or Mom’s couch.

The benefits to a place like ESCP are that going to an EU program is a lot cheaper and safer than, say, going to Drexel with merit, and more fun and glamorous for a high-stats kid, from a distance at least, than going to UMBC or George Mason.
.

How has his experience been with friends, etc? Was he in the UK or EU? If you dont mind me asking, what is he studying?

All great points. DS spent 2-3 weeks at a UK pre-college program and then another 2 weeks at an Italian business school. He absolutely loved the environment. yes, 100% different than the typical US college experience. Im not worried about the experience. He will be fine. I’m just concerned with the return to the states and how employers would value that education.

I think that a big wave of students going to EU English-language bachelor’s programs about five years ago, and the jury’s still out.

My son is finishing up at a comparable program for comparable reasons. We don’t yet know who any student who took a similar route who’s finished and gone on to work, grad school or Mom’s couch.

The benefits to a place like ESCP are that going to an EU program is a lot cheaper and safer than, say, going to Drexel with merit, and more fun and glamorous for a high-stats kid, from a distance at least, than going to UMBC or George Mason.

But a lot of the student social life centers on smoky bars, and the students don’t seem to interact that much with or get great feedback from the instructors. The kinds of U.S. kids who hate the idea of tailgate parties may not be into smoky bars, either.

Hello,

Long time lurker but going through the process now with DS.
DS has done two summer pre-college programs in Soph and Jr year in Europe. While his top target schools are in the US, he has become enamored with ESCP. He toured their London campus and their Turin campus.

Has anyone here even heard anything about ESCP Business School or know kids that have applied or considered? I know in the US there are several t50 that have study abroad opportunities with ESCP. But the school is well known mainly in Europe. Seems like an incredible experience for those kids that know what they want to study. 3 years in 3 different campuses. Paris, London, Turin.

We recently met 3 recent grads from their BSC in Management program. Two American kids and one Mexican kid. They all spoke very highly of their experience. Definitely NOT the typical US college experience. Mexican kid is at McKinsey, one of the American kids at BCG and their other American friend at Airbus.

DS is fluent in Spanish, is learning Italian and has a EU passport alongside his US passport.

Looking at it from the context of an American parent about to drop $300k on an education, I just couldn’t believe how much cheaper Tuition is. You not only graduate in just 3 years, but Tuition for those with a EU passport is $18k. $54k for all 3 years vs $70k Plus for just one year at the private t60s schools he is looking at in the US. He is focusing on t20-t60 ranges.

I have a hard time believing a $300k+ education at a private t60 US college is 6x+ better than a business education at a good European Business school.

I dont know if he would ever come back to work in the US. He is 17. I’m assuming he would like to. My concern is how US employers would look at an American kid with a degree from an European Business school. He would likely stay in Europe to get a Masters right after graduating and maybe come back with 2 degrees in 4 years. For instance, ESCP has a priority application deal with Imperial College for some of their 1-yr MS programs.


Any info or commentary would be appreciated.


DS