Anonymous
10/18/2024 21:24
Subject: Differences in rigor - AP classes
Anonymous wrote:I am in NYC, so maybe it is different elsewhere in the country. But there is SO much difference in rigor between various schools, especially in AP classes. My older kid goes to a selective school where the AP classes involve mountains of homework, and the level of teaching assumes every kid will get a 5 on the test (most do). Taking more than 4 APs per year is practically a death sentence, though there are always kids who do it to chase Ivies. My younger kid goes to a school where the AP classes are more challenging than non, but only slightly. There's test re-takes and tons of extra credit available, so a reasonable amount of effort is basically a guaranteed A grade. A course load of 4 - 5 APs is a relative breeze. Of course, most kids get 2's, if they even take the tests, since they clearly aren't prepared. Ironically, younger kids' school does very well with college placements, probably bc of the APs. But it honestly doesn't seem fair for colleges to view these AP classes as equivalent - objectively, they aren't. The same curriculum can look very difference in practice. Thoughts?
So, why does one kid go to a good school and the other a shitty school?
Your scenario sounds contrived to spur debate.
Anonymous
10/18/2024 20:54
Subject: Differences in rigor - AP classes
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I am in NYC, so maybe it is different elsewhere in the country. But there is SO much difference in rigor between various schools, especially in AP classes. My older kid goes to a selective school where the AP classes involve mountains of homework, and the level of teaching assumes every kid will get a 5 on the test (most do). Taking more than 4 APs per year is practically a death sentence, though there are always kids who do it to chase Ivies. My younger kid goes to a school where the AP classes are more challenging than non, but only slightly. There's test re-takes and tons of extra credit available, so a reasonable amount of effort is basically a guaranteed A grade. A course load of 4 - 5 APs is a relative breeze. Of course, most kids get 2's, if they even take the tests, since they clearly aren't prepared. Ironically, younger kids' school does very well with college placements, probably bc of the APs. But it honestly doesn't seem fair for colleges to view these AP classes as equivalent - objectively, they aren't. The same curriculum can look very difference in practice. Thoughts?
Colleges know which schools/school districts allow retakes, allow any student to sign up for whatever AP courses they want, which ones require students to take the exam, etc. They know they aren't the same rigor. My neighbor's son took AP English in public school and never actually read an entire novel.
You want to believe this but as far as I can tell it just isn't true. Like the $100k college consultant. AOs fall for it every time.
Anonymous
10/18/2024 20:53
Subject: Differences in rigor - AP classes
Anonymous wrote:You have just captured why so many people choose to not send their kid to to a super competitive school. Send them where the 4.0 is assured.
You have to choose: are you there for a great education or are you there for a 4.0
The colleges don’t care what’s fair. Personally, we are in it for the education. Other prefer the grades to access particular schools.
+1
We're also in it for proper college prep, not just college entry. How you thrive in college, and if you thrive, matters.
Anonymous
10/18/2024 20:47
Subject: Differences in rigor - AP classes
PP who said "you have to choose if you are there for the education or the 4.0" is spot on.
We have friends at a W school who are taking some of the same classes on paper as DS at private, but when I've compared notes with my friends, it's like their child is taking a completely different class. What's more, the W school does not require that these kids take the AP exam, but still gives them the GPA bump. It's not fair, but at the end of the day, we choose to send our DS to a school where he is learning to study and work hard. While college admission is a bit of a crapshoot these days, we are at least confident that he will be well-prepared. DD is now at a T20 college and she's said in many ways it's easier than HS.
We have friends at a W school who are taking some of the same classes on paper as DS at private, but when I've compared notes with my friends, it's like their child is taking a completely different class. What's more, the W school does not require that these kids take the AP exam, but still gives them the GPA bump. It's not fair, but at the end of the day, we choose to send our DS to a school where he is learning to study and work hard. While college admission is a bit of a crapshoot these days, we are at least confident that he will be well-prepared. DD is now at a T20 college and she's said in many ways it's easier than HS.
Anonymous
10/18/2024 20:40
Subject: Re:Differences in rigor - AP classes
Anonymous wrote:My kid is at a Catholic HS. Everyone gets 4s or 5s.
My kids have gotten all 5s on their AP exams. They take 1 AP soph, year and then 4 Jr and 4 Sr year.9 total. Have honors courses too.
They don't have the mountains of work--but it is still rigorous that you describe in your first scenario.
And it depends upon the kid and the AP course.
My kid avoided APUSH/AP Eng because they know those would be extremely time consuming. While they could do it and get a 4/5, they didn't want to spend so much time for one course to do well. So they took 4 STEM courses (or 3 plus AP Psych). For them AP Chem and AP Physics and AP Calc AB and AP CS and AP Bio did NOT require much extra time. They didn't have to study much it was just the next natural progression for them after precalc and regular chem and physics and Biology (required at our HS). They got 5s in all of them, so the material was learned. Other kids thought they took more effort, but for my kid they had yet to need to study for a science or math course and that didn't change until Calc BC. There the teacher taught to really prepare them, and everyone typically gets 5s (in 10+ years of teaching it, 99% of kids have gotten 5s, and the rest 4s, only a few 3s over the years).
Anonymous
10/18/2024 20:36
Subject: Differences in rigor - AP classes
^ and there's no gate-keeping in public. My oldest took 12 APs, for most of which he got a 5. My second will take at least that many.
Anonymous
10/18/2024 20:35
Subject: Differences in rigor - AP classes
Certain selective privates gate-keep access to AP classes, because they want to ensure their school can show great statistics for achievement in class, as well as on the AP exams. Since the College Board curriculum is set in stone, teachers who are hired by these schools will probably want to address certain topics not covered, or dig really deep to make very sure all the kids will get 5s on the exam. At least, that's how I understand it from my friends with kids at the top DC privates.
For other privates, or publics, quality of instruction in AP classes will depend on the caliber of the teacher. My kids are in reputable publics, but once in a while an AP teacher will be way too lenient, which makes it easy to get straight As... but very hard to get a 4 or 5 on the exam in May. I made that mistake with my oldest, and cottoned on that I had to hire a tutor when the AP class seemed way too easy. I won't make that mistake with my second!
For other privates, or publics, quality of instruction in AP classes will depend on the caliber of the teacher. My kids are in reputable publics, but once in a while an AP teacher will be way too lenient, which makes it easy to get straight As... but very hard to get a 4 or 5 on the exam in May. I made that mistake with my oldest, and cottoned on that I had to hire a tutor when the AP class seemed way too easy. I won't make that mistake with my second!
Anonymous
10/18/2024 20:34
Subject: Differences in rigor - AP classes
My kid goes to a school with high achieving families where many kids take 4-5 APs a year. They don't generally get 2s though. They very clearly report the class averages. Last year in 9th APUSH the average was close to a 4. My kid got a 5. He worked hard but I wouldn't say it was awful. This year he has 3 APs. Not awful (yet). Results remain to be seen.
It isn't always as binary as you describe.
It isn't always as binary as you describe.
Anonymous
10/18/2024 20:33
Subject: Differences in rigor - AP classes
Anonymous wrote:I am in NYC, so maybe it is different elsewhere in the country. But there is SO much difference in rigor between various schools, especially in AP classes. My older kid goes to a selective school where the AP classes involve mountains of homework, and the level of teaching assumes every kid will get a 5 on the test (most do). Taking more than 4 APs per year is practically a death sentence, though there are always kids who do it to chase Ivies. My younger kid goes to a school where the AP classes are more challenging than non, but only slightly. There's test re-takes and tons of extra credit available, so a reasonable amount of effort is basically a guaranteed A grade. A course load of 4 - 5 APs is a relative breeze. Of course, most kids get 2's, if they even take the tests, since they clearly aren't prepared. Ironically, younger kids' school does very well with college placements, probably bc of the APs. But it honestly doesn't seem fair for colleges to view these AP classes as equivalent - objectively, they aren't. The same curriculum can look very difference in practice. Thoughts?
Colleges know which schools/school districts allow retakes, allow any student to sign up for whatever AP courses they want, which ones require students to take the exam, etc. They know they aren't the same rigor. My neighbor's son took AP English in public school and never actually read an entire novel.
Anonymous
10/18/2024 20:32
Subject: Differences in rigor - AP classes
Anonymous wrote:I am in NYC, so maybe it is different elsewhere in the country. But there is SO much difference in rigor between various schools, especially in AP classes. My older kid goes to a selective school where the AP classes involve mountains of homework, and the level of teaching assumes every kid will get a 5 on the test (most do). Taking more than 4 APs per year is practically a death sentence, though there are always kids who do it to chase Ivies. My younger kid goes to a school where the AP classes are more challenging than non, but only slightly. There's test re-takes and tons of extra credit available, so a reasonable amount of effort is basically a guaranteed A grade. A course load of 4 - 5 APs is a relative breeze. Of course, most kids get 2's, if they even take the tests, since they clearly aren't prepared. Ironically, younger kids' school does very well with college placements, probably bc of the APs. But it honestly doesn't seem fair for colleges to view these AP classes as equivalent - objectively, they aren't. The same curriculum can look very difference in practice. Thoughts?
How about step back and realize the purpose is for your kid to learn. The first kid will learn the material, get a 5, and get college credit. And most importantly, if they need to take the next course at college, they will be Prepared! Yes it does suck to have harder APs, but ideally it's ok to only take 3-4 per year and actually learn the material.
Also AO know which schools everyone gets 5s and which schools majority get 3 or lower. If your kid takes 8 APs and didn't take the test for any, they know it was not rigorous
Anonymous
10/18/2024 20:31
Subject: Differences in rigor - AP classes
No idea how sound your theory is, my kids both went through a solid ( but not famous) public with lots of APs offered. First kid took all the hardest classes throughout school, worked hard but never had mountains of homework and had plenty of time for ECs and a d at ocisl lufe. APs all 4s and 5s. Second kid takes a mix of levels, never appears to have much homework, so far all 4s on APs.
Anonymous
10/18/2024 20:28
Subject: Differences in rigor - AP classes
My kids go to a Big3 where it's typical to get B in an on-level class and then a 5 on the corresponding AP exam.
It's a little ridiculous. my kids have 5s in a number of classes they had Bs in.
It's a little ridiculous. my kids have 5s in a number of classes they had Bs in.
Anonymous
10/18/2024 20:08
Subject: Re:Differences in rigor - AP classes
My kid is at a Catholic HS. Everyone gets 4s or 5s.
My kids have gotten all 5s on their AP exams. They take 1 AP soph, year and then 4 Jr and 4 Sr year.9 total. Have honors courses too.
They don't have the mountains of work--but it is still rigorous that you describe in your first scenario.
My kids have gotten all 5s on their AP exams. They take 1 AP soph, year and then 4 Jr and 4 Sr year.9 total. Have honors courses too.
They don't have the mountains of work--but it is still rigorous that you describe in your first scenario.
Anonymous
10/18/2024 19:43
Subject: Differences in rigor - AP classes
You have just captured why so many people choose to not send their kid to to a super competitive school. Send them where the 4.0 is assured.
You have to choose: are you there for a great education or are you there for a 4.0
The colleges don’t care what’s fair. Personally, we are in it for the education. Other prefer the grades to access particular schools.
You have to choose: are you there for a great education or are you there for a 4.0
The colleges don’t care what’s fair. Personally, we are in it for the education. Other prefer the grades to access particular schools.
Anonymous
10/18/2024 19:38
Subject: Differences in rigor - AP classes
I am in NYC, so maybe it is different elsewhere in the country. But there is SO much difference in rigor between various schools, especially in AP classes. My older kid goes to a selective school where the AP classes involve mountains of homework, and the level of teaching assumes every kid will get a 5 on the test (most do). Taking more than 4 APs per year is practically a death sentence, though there are always kids who do it to chase Ivies. My younger kid goes to a school where the AP classes are more challenging than non, but only slightly. There's test re-takes and tons of extra credit available, so a reasonable amount of effort is basically a guaranteed A grade. A course load of 4 - 5 APs is a relative breeze. Of course, most kids get 2's, if they even take the tests, since they clearly aren't prepared. Ironically, younger kids' school does very well with college placements, probably bc of the APs. But it honestly doesn't seem fair for colleges to view these AP classes as equivalent - objectively, they aren't. The same curriculum can look very difference in practice. Thoughts?