A 10 yo shouldn't be a rising 4th grader. My 10 yo is a rising 6th grader, but most are going into 5th.

If he's treated younger than his age all the time and with a younger cohort, then you will have to expect him to act younger than his age.

I have seen atrocious behavior at our cub scout den and pack meetings, with parents on the sidelines either ignoring or seemingly amused by it. Like, straight up lord of the flies behavior. As a member of the leadership we are constantly trying to figure out what to do about it, because they just flat out don’t listen to us and it is harder when their parents are right there and not insisting they change their behavior or backing us up.

Anonymous wrote:Your expectations are too high

Wrong.

I have a rising 5th grader and these are normal expectations. Unfortunately, 4th grade is where you begin to see which parents have held the line, and which have given up. Your child will probably want to stop associating with the wilder kids soon enough. Just follow his lead.

OP chiming in to say thanks for the perspective and keep it coming. I should say that the dealing with dishes is less alarming to me than the repeated request for screen time or to watch. Just another 10 minutes of funny or die. I just can’t imagine lobbying my friends parents like that when I was a kid. I was not nice to my friends all the time, which I regret, but I didn’t push it with parents.

I also forgot to mention all the gun play! I am realizing I’ve let my son get too far into this—I guess bc I never expected him and his friends to pretend to shoot each other execution-style and be so….well, I’m not sure what. Writing this thread is having me rethink some of my own choices.

And yes, I will hide the gum when that kid comes over, and if he wants some, he can ask for it!

Anonymous wrote:Your expectations are too high

Especially for fourth grade boys! Good Lord.

My 14 yo was eating at a friend's house and he took his dish to the sink. The friend's parents told me what a great kid my son must be in that he took his dish to the sink by himself. I said " That's nice "

But the reality is that though I've been after him since he was 5 or 6 to put his dish in the sink, he's still only at about 60% of the time he's going to remember without me reminding him. But that number has been steadily increasing so I have a good feeling he's going to be at 100% soon.

So yeah, manners are a work in progress, no matter how aggressive the parent is (and I certainly am) in teaching them

The taking things out of drawers I can't speak about. That's a little strange

The really scary thing to me is what you’re describing shows up with many of the rising first grade boys my son is with at camp and in other settings. Absolutely atrocious behavior and parents watch from the sideline with no acknowledgement of the behavior or our new favorite line to encounter is “I’ll let his therapist know…” WTH!!! The therapist isn’t your coparent.

Your expectations are too high

It completely varies by family. I have experienced behavior like you’ve outlined (and worse), and the opposite end of the spectrum. I think it’s a mix of gentle parenting gone awry, and parents who were overwhelmed during Covid and screen time was increased and structure and discipline was decreased.

My DS seems to have found his group of sweet boys who are polite and respectful. They exist!

There's a mix here.

- Not bringing dishes to the sink is a different expectation in every household. I wouldn't expect kids outside of my household to automatically do what we do. If they didn't do it after I asked them, then that's rude.

- Bad behavior during a birthday party. I wouldn't use this as an example of anything. Birthday parties are just too much stimulation. Expecting young guests to sit while you do the dishes? Really, OP. C'mon. Expecting all the guests to bring their plates in or put back toys is also not party behavior. Manage your expectations. If this happened during a play date, you can have clean up time for 15 minutes at the end. But kids do not clean up as they go.

- Grabbing gum and leaving wrappers. Okay, very rude. But if this happened during a party, again, let it go.

My DD is a rising 4th grader and there is something distinctly wrong with the boys in her grade at her private school and her age in the neighborhood (two very different groups). They are noticeably different from the boys in younger and older cohorts. I grew up in a house of brothers and boy cousins and cannot believe what I see now. I would not hesitate to describe them as absolute little sh-ts.

I know it’s a theory that’s been beaten to death but I really do believe that parents of this age of kids (prek and then K during the pandemic) basically gave boys iPads and video games in 2020 and disappeared from their lives except to pop up at competitive sports events. And now those same parents chuckle at it from a distance like their kids are just cute naughty toddlers, not 9 and 10 year old boys swearing, getting angry about anything even remotely competitive that they don’t win, and using homophobic and misogynistic language. School can’t do anything and parents won’t do anything, and it’s really hard for a “village” of coaches, neighbors and friends to push back when so many parents are complicit or complacent.

Yes. I’ve noticed that in the absence of an established power kids have seized control. This generation knows they won’t get hit so they push boundaries especially with adults that can’t do anything to them. I would have given the iPad back to his mom when she dropped him off.

Also I’m the only person with the password to the iPads

In my experience, many kids behave worse rather than better at other people's houses. It's likely your kid is having similar troubles at other people's houses.

Parents are different now and honestly loving their kids to low expectations for a multitude of reasons. We see it all the time with our kids and their friends.

Your expectations aren’t too high. Keep them that way.

I would move the gym next time that kid comes over. Hold your other boundaries, you know they’re right.

I am trying to approach this with a spirit of curiosity and compassion, instead of "what the bleep?" that I am feeling: Has anyone else experienced boys in the 4th grade age range to push and push and push the limits and show very little home training (clearing their dish, eg)? My son is a work in progress, to be sure, and I know his ADHD can make him fixate on something he wants and show little home training even IN his home. And I know like can attract like, so for all I know, even the friends whose situations I don't know may have ADHD, along with the 1 or 2 I do know about. But here's what I have been on the receiving end of in the last month:

-Birthday party where the 3 dinner guests brought their Nerf guns to the dinner table, and it took me many very firm directions to get them to put the guns in another room
-guest who persisted in asking, even after he and my kid had had an hour of screentime together, whether they could go back to playing -- while eating lunch, while waiting for me to wash dishes before taking them to the pool, and then wanting to bring the iPad to an activity for the 15 minutes of down-time at that activity. (B that time, I had learned to separate them from their iPads.) He literally must have asked me 20 times, even when I was very clear that there would be no more screentime.
-friend who consistently takes gum from our drawers without asking and leaves his wrappers (yes, plural in one visit) everywhere (I'm pretty sure my kids ask before taking food from someone's kitchen. And he's 10!)

And no one seems to even ask whether they should bring their dishes to the sink, to put back a toy, etc. It's like they're used to having everything served to them with zero expectation that they contribute.

I know most of my son's friends' parents, and I would say they have similar values. But are they just not expecting that much from their kids--like Oh, he's a boy, I can't expect him to do this so I won't insist? Is screentime such a normal longing that parents have given in and are letting their kids play without limits and take their devices everywhere? I recognize that I can have high expectations, but I also don't think it's abnormal to think a kid should get the message that There Will Be No More Screentime Today, and I Am Getting Testy, So Drop It!

I truly am curious if people have noticed an increase in this type of behavior, especially from boys. Teachers, hoping to hear your thoughts. Oh yeah, maybe this is part of the reason so many teachers are saying they've had it. I wouldn't blame you!