My environmental lawyer friend went to a T14 and thought she was going to save the world and as she puts it, her job is now to figure out exactly how much corporations are allowed to pollute the environment without getting fined.

Anonymous wrote:Major doesn't matter. She needs a very high GPA and a very high LSAT to be competitive for T14. Not worth going outside the T14. There are plenty of other threads on here about practicing law.

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Not-a-lawyer-but-plays-one-on-the-internet has entered the chat.

Anonymous wrote:It depends on her personality.

She could do the aforementioned grinding to get into a T14 and strive for clerkships or BigLaw and work insane hours for great money.

She could go for a more middle class career working for a mid-level firm (but she might have to work just as hard as BigLaw) or in government.

She could be an idealist who works in public interest law making a low salary assisting low income clients with far lower hours than BigLaw but incredible stress.

She could get an in-house role (probably after BigLaw) or start her own firm (probably after working at a small or mid-size firm) or work in a JD-advantage compliance type position...

The key is not to take on enormous debt if you're not going to go the BigLaw route. I went to a good regional school with a full scholarship and have worked solely for the government in research and advisory type positions (no going to court) and am very happy with that. And I know of plenty of lawyers who went to much lower-ranked schools than I did with good careers at local firms, as judges, in good government jobs, in local politics, etc.

I would say don’t take on the big debt period, no matter what “route” you might intend to take. I went to a T1 law school that cost a fortune, and a lot of my peers who planned on going “the BigLaw route” as you put it never got anywhere near that kind of a job and have struggled with their loans for decades.

Anonymous wrote:I'm a lawyer from a zero-lawyers family. I've enjoyed all my jobs, including early years at a big firm (although I could not do that lifestyle long-term). She needs to be a strong writer, detail-oriented, with strong executive function. Most lawyers are bit high strung, so if she can manage to be both detail-oriented and calm, she'll go far.

Three common mistakes people make, IMO, are:
- Going into big debt if you are not sure you can get a big salary. There are a lot of lawyers: the fancy jobs are competitive.
- Thinking that you should be a lawyer because you "like to argue." Lawyers are strategic and customer-oriented: it's usually not in our interest to argue for the sake of it.
- Thinking that an enviro/animal law focus will involve any actual contact with nature. You won't be doing field work, you'll be writing donor agreements.

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I disagree with a lot of this.

First, I have ADHD and terrible executive functioning. And I did very very well in a T1 law school and have a great job that a lot of other people would like to have. I have my own way of managing things, like I always have, and it’s fine. No one with poor executive functioning should hesitate to go to law school. It’s fine.

Second, you must not be in litigation. Our ranks are filled with people who like to just argue, and some people are quite good at it when they need to be. For example, when their client has almost no case but hundreds of millions are at issue and there is a lot of money to spend on legal fees. In this scenario, the strategy is to bury the other side and harass opposing counsel to death. This is a very common scenario, and the folks who, as you put it “like to argue” —well, there’s a lot of them and the clients love them for this.

Finally, I went to a law school that is top ranked in environmental law, and I do not think it is common for law students who study it to think they’re gonna be petting animals or visiting meadows or something. They know they’re going to be “writing donor agreements” as you put it, or, more likely: working for Exxon.

—also the first lawyer in my family

You can have any major at all and then go to law school. I know lawyers who majored in drama, Econ, physics, English, accounting, whatever.

At my firm attorneys are expected to bill 1800 per year. At other law firms it's more. You need to be very, very precise as a (good) lawyer.

I scored 99th percentile on the LSAT. I think a lot of was because I took a low-level “Critical Thinking” class where I really enjoyed learning about syllogisms, etc. She should take a class like that. Otherwise major doesn’t matter.

I'm a lawyer from a zero-lawyers family. I've enjoyed all my jobs, including early years at a big firm (although I could not do that lifestyle long-term). She needs to be a strong writer, detail-oriented, with strong executive function. Most lawyers are bit high strung, so if she can manage to be both detail-oriented and calm, she'll go far.

Three common mistakes people make, IMO, are:
- Going into big debt if you are not sure you can get a big salary. There are a lot of lawyers: the fancy jobs are competitive.
- Thinking that you should be a lawyer because you "like to argue." Lawyers are strategic and customer-oriented: it's usually not in our interest to argue for the sake of it.
- Thinking that an enviro/animal law focus will involve any actual contact with nature. You won't be doing field work, you'll be writing donor agreements.

Undergraduate degree majors generally don't matter for law school admission, grades and test scores do. That said, success in law school and beyond requires excellence in analysis and in communications skills, especially writing, so majors which cultivate those capabilities are very helpful.

Carrer opportunities abound for lawyers, and some career paths have been mentioned already - both private and public sector roles are possibilities, with a very wide range of potential types of practice and practice environments. A fairly limited subset of role types are extremely well compensated, i.e., very large firms in major cities, and top legal positions in large companies, which typically require graduation from one of the top 14 or so law schools. There are many other positions in law which do not require such credentials but, as others have said, attorney jobs which are less well compensated do not necessarily justify the time and expense of law school, depending on the actual costs involved, and the income forgone while in school. That may not matter if job satisfaction is a higher priority, and if a career in law will provide that more surely than alternatives.

There are also jobs for attorneys which do not necessarily involve practicing law but where legal credentials can provide a competitive career advantage. Examples include in law enforcement and in financial planning/wealth management. With a top legal education, teaching can also be an option, both at the law school level and for courses in other areas of study at the undergraduate and graduate level.

A law degree is very versatile, but it does take time and money to acquire which may or may not be recouped later if one opts for or is limited by the nature of one's academic credentials to less remunerative jobs.

Anonymous wrote:It depends on her personality.

She could do the aforementioned grinding to get into a T14 and strive for clerkships or BigLaw and work insane hours for great money.

She could go for a more middle class career working for a mid-level firm (but she might have to work just as hard as BigLaw) or in government.

She could be an idealist who works in public interest law making a low salary assisting low income clients with far lower hours than BigLaw but incredible stress.

She could get an in-house role (probably after BigLaw) or start her own firm (probably after working at a small or mid-size firm) or work in a JD-advantage compliance type position...

The key is not to take on enormous debt if you're not going to go the BigLaw route. I went to a good regional school with a full scholarship and have worked solely for the government in research and advisory type positions (no going to court) and am very happy with that. And I know of plenty of lawyers who went to much lower-ranked schools than I did with good careers at local firms, as judges, in good government jobs, in local politics, etc.

I second this. I am happy with my career as an attorney (have worked in small firms and government), but would not have done well with the grind and cut-throat competition of BigLaw. There are many interesting paths to take with a law degree, but few of them are worth taking out six figure loan debt, so prospective law students need to think carefully about the cost-benefit analysis.

It depends on her personality.

She could do the aforementioned grinding to get into a T14 and strive for clerkships or BigLaw and work insane hours for great money.

She could go for a more middle class career working for a mid-level firm (but she might have to work just as hard as BigLaw) or in government.

She could be an idealist who works in public interest law making a low salary assisting low income clients with far lower hours than BigLaw but incredible stress.

She could get an in-house role (probably after BigLaw) or start her own firm (probably after working at a small or mid-size firm) or work in a JD-advantage compliance type position...

The key is not to take on enormous debt if you're not going to go the BigLaw route. I went to a good regional school with a full scholarship and have worked solely for the government in research and advisory type positions (no going to court) and am very happy with that. And I know of plenty of lawyers who went to much lower-ranked schools than I did with good careers at local firms, as judges, in good government jobs, in local politics, etc.

She needs to be able to write well.

Anonymous wrote:We are non-lawyers and there is not a single lawyer in our family. My DD seems to be showing some interest in this area, so wondering about the career options, opportunities, and education pathways. What subject area(s) should she be focusing on or have an interest in, and what majors should she be looking at when choosing colleges? Thank you for the help.

She should just do whatever she likes. You don’t need any specific background to be a lawyer. All you need is excellent grades and recommendations, which she’ll get if she studies something she enjoys.

Major doesn't matter. She needs a very high GPA and a very high LSAT to be competitive for T14. Not worth going outside the T14. There are plenty of other threads on here about practicing law.

What interest is she showing? Why does she want a law degree?

We are non-lawyers and there is not a single lawyer in our family. My DD seems to be showing some interest in this area, so wondering about the career options, opportunities, and education pathways. What subject area(s) should she be focusing on or have an interest in, and what majors should she be looking at when choosing colleges? Thank you for the help.