Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?

Imho O Chem is one of the easiest class if you have a good teacher or supplement with a good tutor. Once you start to get it, its a piece of cake.

*it's

Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?

Imho O Chem is one of the easiest class if you have a good teacher or supplement with a good tutor. Once you start to get it, its a piece of cake.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's the first class in chemistry that students isn't already take once or twice in high school. There's the same in any major. But Orgo is full of people who are NOT chem.majors, who don't care about chemistry and aren't good at learning science, but want to be rich doctors.

I'll counter that it's often the first science course most people take where you can't memorize your way to an A.

That is what I remember as well. Regular chem was a lot of factual memorization but this was a different animal. It wasn’t until the last month that I really understood that and could change my approach and study differently. It was the first course that shook me up - that was before I could rely on the internet for help so it was just me and my classmates pulling all nighters so we did not fail. A C was considered a very respectable grade in the class.

It was a weed out class back then for pre-med - many dropped it to take at community college P/F. After I graduated they required it to be taken at the school- even if you took it elsewhere so they knew you were ready for the subsequent courses.

Biology majors especially struggle because so much of biology is memorization, at least until you get to substantive lab work in graduate school. They don't know how to study for it.

You are better off pretending organic chemistry is a math course and studying for it like you would calculus. The molecules are pictures, but problems are still problems that requires solving.

Anonymous wrote:Many kids, especially premeds, try to memorize their way through organic chemistry by memorizing every single reaction. That isn't a good strategy as there is too much to memorize. Instead, you need to understand the reactions, why they are happening (the mechanisms), and be able to apply the mechanisms to new situations (i.e., problem solve). Most kids don't understand the reactions well enough to apply that understanding and thus do poorly on tests. You need to study by pushing arrows and doing a million problems.

The kids who do well in organic chemistry tend to be analytical thinkers who are good at strategy (e.g., board games) and willing to keep going until they understand the content.

--organic chemistry PhD

This is exactly right.

What I found is that you cannot use general categories of reactions to figure out what happens when you put X and Y together, because there are too many exceptions, and then you add in various catalysts, and it all goes to pot. Instead, what is required is being really good at stereochemistry, and having the ability to visualize objects in 3-D space. I was terrible at Organic Chem (my worst grade ever, and I have two Masters, one in molecular biology, another in bioinformatics), but had a good friend that was amazing at it. For him, it took no effort; he could visualize what the molecules looked like in 3-D space, how they fold, and what that meant for reactions. I could not, for the life of me. The vast majority of students either lack the ability like me, or have never had to think that way.

Anonymous wrote:I have a degree in Chemical Engineering and graduated 3rd in my class from a T20 law school.
I got a D in organic chemistry.

The hard work and humility was great prep Physical Chemistry.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's the first class in chemistry that students isn't already take once or twice in high school. There's the same in any major. But Orgo is full of people who are NOT chem.majors, who don't care about chemistry and aren't good at learning science, but want to be rich doctors.

I'll counter that it's often the first science course most people take where you can't memorize your way to an A.

That is what I remember as well. Regular chem was a lot of factual memorization but this was a different animal. It wasn’t until the last month that I really understood that and could change my approach and study differently. It was the first course that shook me up - that was before I could rely on the internet for help so it was just me and my classmates pulling all nighters so we did not fail. A C was considered a very respectable grade in the class.

It was a weed out class back then for pre-med - many dropped it to take at community college P/F. After I graduated they required it to be taken at the school- even if you took it elsewhere so they knew you were ready for the subsequent courses.

Anonymous wrote:Many kids, especially premeds, try to memorize their way through organic chemistry by memorizing every single reaction. That isn't a good strategy as there is too much to memorize. Instead, you need to understand the reactions, why they are happening (the mechanisms), and be able to apply the mechanisms to new situations (i.e., problem solve). Most kids don't understand the reactions well enough to apply that understanding and thus do poorly on tests. You need to study by pushing arrows and doing a million problems.

The kids who do well in organic chemistry tend to be analytical thinkers who are good at strategy (e.g., board games) and willing to keep going until they understand the content.

--organic chemistry PhD

Thank you for this cogent answer.

I have a degree in Chemical Engineering and graduated 3rd in my class from a T20 law school.
I got a D in organic chemistry.

Anonymous wrote:I have no idea if it is the hardest class, but all the Premed and a bunch of other STEM kids have to take it.

At schools where they grade on a curve, I recall a kid saying the curve was a 97/100 for an A.

It seems to aggregate a segment of college kids that care acutely about the grade they receive in that class as I guess it impacts grad school.

That's a super weird curve for orgo. Often a 40-50% will curve to an A because the content is so difficult.

Anonymous wrote:It's the first class in chemistry that students isn't already take once or twice in high school. There's the same in any major. But Orgo is full of people who are NOT chem.majors, who don't care about chemistry and aren't good at learning science, but want to be rich doctors.

I'll counter that it's often the first science course most people take where you can't memorize your way to an A.

I have no idea if it is the hardest class, but all the Premed and a bunch of other STEM kids have to take it.

At schools where they grade on a curve, I recall a kid saying the curve was a 97/100 for an A.

It seems to aggregate a segment of college kids that care acutely about the grade they receive in that class as I guess it impacts grad school.

Many kids, especially premeds, try to memorize their way through organic chemistry by memorizing every single reaction. That isn't a good strategy as there is too much to memorize. Instead, you need to understand the reactions, why they are happening (the mechanisms), and be able to apply the mechanisms to new situations (i.e., problem solve). Most kids don't understand the reactions well enough to apply that understanding and thus do poorly on tests. You need to study by pushing arrows and doing a million problems.

The kids who do well in organic chemistry tend to be analytical thinkers who are good at strategy (e.g., board games) and willing to keep going until they understand the content.

--organic chemistry PhD

It's the first class in chemistry that students isn't already take once or twice in high school. There's the same in any major. But Orgo is full of people who are NOT chem.majors, who don't care about chemistry and aren't good at learning science, but want to be rich doctors.

Anonymous wrote:I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?

It's just a different type of chemistry. You either understand it or not. It still remains one of the hardest college courses for most kids.
my kid got a 5 on AP Chemistry, so was eligible for "Freshman O Chem" which meant with all the kids who had 4/5 or IB credit for regular chemistry. It was their hardest class ever, made more challenging by fact over 50% of the class had already taken O Chem in HS but had to retake it because there is no way to get college credit (not AP). So the average on first midterm was 87%. Whereas in the regular O chem (that sophomore/juniors take after having completed Chem 101/102) the first midterm avg was 42%. So for my kid without any O chem course previously it was an extremely challenging course.

I often hear this is one of the hardest college classes, if not the hardest. I did not take this. But, for kids going to a lot of stem paths, they'll have to do so.

Why is it so hard? What makes it that way? Anyone take it (I'm sure lots have)? Can a kid who is slightly above average in HS Chem do well in O-Chem?