Anonymous
01/14/2024 23:01
Subject: Was there ever a time when your average nine to fiver could afford the American Dream?
this is a great thread.
my grandparents owned a clothing store. They had a house in a midwestern city.
but their child went to private school, they went out to eat at a nice restaurant maybe 4 times a week, they went to cocktail parties. they took vacations.
If I owned a store in like - cleveland. I dont know that those things would happen for me.
my grandparents owned a clothing store. They had a house in a midwestern city.
but their child went to private school, they went out to eat at a nice restaurant maybe 4 times a week, they went to cocktail parties. they took vacations.
If I owned a store in like - cleveland. I dont know that those things would happen for me.
Anonymous
01/14/2024 22:57
Subject: Was there ever a time when your average nine to fiver could afford the American Dream?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Of course this was possible, OP. My dad was a fed. gov't. employee and my mom was a SAHM. They bought a home in Great Falls in the late 70s. The house cost $100,000 and was paid off by the mid-80s when my sibling and I started high school.
That would never happen today. I'm so worried for my own kids' futures.
I believe you but I'm also curious how many sq ft the house was, how many bedrooms & baths?
I grew up in a nice neighborhood on my dad's teacher salary in the 1970s, feeling middle class, but it was a 2 bedroom house and I shared a bedroom with 2 siblings and a bathroom with siblings and parents, so 5 of us using 1 bathroom.
So while I absolutely agree people have to spend more of their salary on housing today, I also think expectations of the type of home people want have greatly increased. How many middle class families in the DMV would be fine living in a house where 5 people shared one bathroom and 3 kids shared 1 bedroom?
I don't know the sq. footage of the house, but it was a traditional colonial - four bedrooms, 2 1/2 baths, almost two acres. Nothing fancy, but very solidly comfortable. That would never happen today.
Anonymous
01/14/2024 22:55
Subject: Re:Was there ever a time when your average nine to fiver could afford the American Dream?
Anonymous wrote:My in laws could afford a colonial in McLean in the 60’s and 70’s with a single earner salary working for gov as gs12
That is about as middle income as you can get
Now you can’t touch McLean colonials for under 1.5 million. And that is not a gov gs12 single earner family
Demand outstrips supply , and we keep making it worse by importing millions of legal and illegal immigrants. It is insane.
Now compare what a gs12 in Detroit could buy in 1970 vs today? DC was a backwater and is now a world class city, some cities have gone the other way and prices reflect that.
Anonymous
01/14/2024 22:37
Subject: Was there ever a time when your average nine to fiver could afford the American Dream?
Anonymous wrote:Yes, of course OP. Where are you from/ how old? I am a boomer from the Midwest ( OH). Both blue collar and white color people could afford a house, 2 cars, college tuition to a state school and maybe a vacay or 2. I had 8 kids in my family. Dad was a GS 12 government lawyer.
A GS-12 was higher on the food chain back then. Lots of grade inflation. It’s misleading to compare directly that was, compare median fed grade back then to now when talking about what is average/normal.
Anonymous
01/14/2024 22:35
Subject: Was there ever a time when your average nine to fiver could afford the American Dream?
Anonymous wrote:Of course this was possible, OP. My dad was a fed. gov't. employee and my mom was a SAHM. They bought a home in Great Falls in the late 70s. The house cost $100,000 and was paid off by the mid-80s when my sibling and I started high school.
That would never happen today. I'm so worried for my own kids' futures.
We screw our own children when we import millions of cheap low wage workers to keep billionaires richer.
Why are people so naive to think that big tech has had a worker shortage for 34 years?? We take good jobs from our own children and give them to cheaper desperate foreign labor , and then wonder why entry level salaries are low
Anonymous
01/14/2024 22:32
Subject: Was there ever a time when your average nine to fiver could afford the American Dream?
Anonymous wrote:Full disclosure - I lean left, but pragmatically so and I’m often skeptical of some of the maxims of the far left.
One such is - and this is where some of my friends on the populist left beer into Make America Great Again territory in this glorification of the past - the idea that once upon a time, a middle class worker could afford a house in the suburbs and raise kids on a single income.
The rationale behind this nostalgia is that income inequality has grown, and the combination of corporate greed-driven inflation and stagnant wages has lowered the purchasing power of your average workaday nine-to-five bloke, and that only the ultra rich can afford the “American Dream” lifestyle of a single family home with a white picket fence, etc. And that somebody somewhere along the line, probably Ronald Reagan, ruined everything.
While the sentiment resonates with me ideologically, I’d like to take a closer look at some of the assumptions.
First, having a single income generally meant that the woman stayed home. While I’m as feminist as the next person and think women of course should have freedom to work, the trade off is childcare costs.
Second, the middle class “American Dream” of the 1950s was a lot simpler. It’s one thing to acknowledge the insane cost of housing, but even the 50s/60s “keeping up with the Joneses” era didn’t have the same expenses of today. Smartphones and all the tech and gadgets didn’t exist, and overseas vacations were rare.
Third, and this is where I actually don’t know the answer and am asking the audience… to what extent was the “American Dream” affordable to the AVERAGE person, versus an aspiration that could be achieved by competing and moving up the ladder? Maybe in the 1990s? (I say this because I grew up solidly middle class in the 90s, my parents both worked but they had normal jobs, were not executives, didn’t work excessive hours, and could afford a SFH, three cars, summer camps, and the occasional overseas vacation plus Florida).
I DO believe that a) we have a housing crisis, and b) “hustle culture” is toxic. But I do have doubts about the idea that life used to be so much easier and that younger generations have it uniquely hard.
The old dream has changed significantly. Just look at house size. Then think about all the features people have now, pool ownership is way up for example. A 1950s house was tiny with no features, dishwashers etc. People have way more goods than before, electronics and such. International travel pre 1980s was way more expensive as well.
You can look all this stuff up, instead of people’s feelings or comparisons with their more successful parents. The median family is materially much better off than decades ago.
Homeownership rates have basically been steady for decades with only small up and downs.
Anonymous
01/14/2024 22:29
Subject: Was there ever a time when your average nine to fiver could afford the American Dream?
Yes, happened all over America in the 50s, 60s, and 70s.
Anonymous
01/14/2024 22:19
Subject: Was there ever a time when your average nine to fiver could afford the American Dream?
Anonymous wrote:Of course this was possible, OP. My dad was a fed. gov't. employee and my mom was a SAHM. They bought a home in Great Falls in the late 70s. The house cost $100,000 and was paid off by the mid-80s when my sibling and I started high school.
That would never happen today. I'm so worried for my own kids' futures.
I believe you but I'm also curious how many sq ft the house was, how many bedrooms & baths?
I grew up in a nice neighborhood on my dad's teacher salary in the 1970s, feeling middle class, but it was a 2 bedroom house and I shared a bedroom with 2 siblings and a bathroom with siblings and parents, so 5 of us using 1 bathroom.
So while I absolutely agree people have to spend more of their salary on housing today, I also think expectations of the type of home people want have greatly increased. How many middle class families in the DMV would be fine living in a house where 5 people shared one bathroom and 3 kids shared 1 bedroom?
Anonymous
01/14/2024 22:07
Subject: Was there ever a time when your average nine to fiver could afford the American Dream?
Of course this was possible, OP. My dad was a fed. gov't. employee and my mom was a SAHM. They bought a home in Great Falls in the late 70s. The house cost $100,000 and was paid off by the mid-80s when my sibling and I started high school.
That would never happen today. I'm so worried for my own kids' futures.
That would never happen today. I'm so worried for my own kids' futures.
Anonymous
01/14/2024 22:05
Subject: Was there ever a time when your average nine to fiver could afford the American Dream?
Grandparents (greatest generation ever).
Mother's parents were a carpenter and housewife, who later went to work as a bookkeeper when my mother was in 10th grade (1965): owned modest brick bungalow house in a respectable Baltimore neighborhood. One car. One vacation a year to Ocean City. Healthy savings that accumulated over the years. Social life was church and family. Put their only child through a private college without any financial assistance
Father's parents were a factory patternmaker and housewife. Midsize town in Pennsylvania. Owned a modest brick house on a large lot. One car. Vacation was seeing relatives in Florida or Ohio. They drove, never flew. Social life was church and friends and family. Put their two sons through Ivy universities, small scholarships in both cases.
People's lives were much more modest and the measure of success aka the American dream was also modest. You owned your own house, you were able to save a bit of money, you had a car, you had the week's vacation at the lake or ocean or visiting relatives.
They were all happy people.
The American dream was very real. It wasn't defined by owning a mansion.
Mother's parents were a carpenter and housewife, who later went to work as a bookkeeper when my mother was in 10th grade (1965): owned modest brick bungalow house in a respectable Baltimore neighborhood. One car. One vacation a year to Ocean City. Healthy savings that accumulated over the years. Social life was church and family. Put their only child through a private college without any financial assistance
Father's parents were a factory patternmaker and housewife. Midsize town in Pennsylvania. Owned a modest brick house on a large lot. One car. Vacation was seeing relatives in Florida or Ohio. They drove, never flew. Social life was church and friends and family. Put their two sons through Ivy universities, small scholarships in both cases.
People's lives were much more modest and the measure of success aka the American dream was also modest. You owned your own house, you were able to save a bit of money, you had a car, you had the week's vacation at the lake or ocean or visiting relatives.
They were all happy people.
The American dream was very real. It wasn't defined by owning a mansion.
Anonymous
01/14/2024 22:01
Subject: Was there ever a time when your average nine to fiver could afford the American Dream?
Yes, of course OP. Where are you from/ how old? I am a boomer from the Midwest ( OH). Both blue collar and white color people could afford a house, 2 cars, college tuition to a state school and maybe a vacay or 2. I had 8 kids in my family. Dad was a GS 12 government lawyer.
Anonymous
01/14/2024 21:59
Subject: Was there ever a time when your average nine to fiver could afford the American Dream?
My dad graduated from high school in 1953. That summer, he worked at a Big-3 automaker plant, on the assembly line. He cleared enough to pay for tuition at an Ivy League school.
Look at what college tuition is like today, and what wages for high school graduates are like today.
Dad said that it wasn't until he was about 40 that he, with his Ivy League degree, was making more than his high school classmates who had gone straight into the auto plant and stayed there.
Look at what college tuition is like today, and what wages for high school graduates are like today.
Dad said that it wasn't until he was about 40 that he, with his Ivy League degree, was making more than his high school classmates who had gone straight into the auto plant and stayed there.
Anonymous
01/14/2024 21:55
Subject: Was there ever a time when your average nine to fiver could afford the American Dream?
Homer Simpson.
Owns a house and two cars. Has three kids and a stay-at-home wife. On a blue-collar salary.
He is unionized though.
Owns a house and two cars. Has three kids and a stay-at-home wife. On a blue-collar salary.
He is unionized though.
Anonymous
01/14/2024 21:53
Subject: Re:Was there ever a time when your average nine to fiver could afford the American Dream?
My in laws could afford a colonial in McLean in the 60’s and 70’s with a single earner salary working for gov as gs12
That is about as middle income as you can get
Now you can’t touch McLean colonials for under 1.5 million. And that is not a gov gs12 single earner family
Demand outstrips supply , and we keep making it worse by importing millions of legal and illegal immigrants. It is insane.
That is about as middle income as you can get
Now you can’t touch McLean colonials for under 1.5 million. And that is not a gov gs12 single earner family
Demand outstrips supply , and we keep making it worse by importing millions of legal and illegal immigrants. It is insane.
Anonymous
01/14/2024 21:46
Subject: Was there ever a time when your average nine to fiver could afford the American Dream?
Full disclosure - I lean left, but pragmatically so and I’m often skeptical of some of the maxims of the far left.
One such is - and this is where some of my friends on the populist left beer into Make America Great Again territory in this glorification of the past - the idea that once upon a time, a middle class worker could afford a house in the suburbs and raise kids on a single income.
The rationale behind this nostalgia is that income inequality has grown, and the combination of corporate greed-driven inflation and stagnant wages has lowered the purchasing power of your average workaday nine-to-five bloke, and that only the ultra rich can afford the “American Dream” lifestyle of a single family home with a white picket fence, etc. And that somebody somewhere along the line, probably Ronald Reagan, ruined everything.
While the sentiment resonates with me ideologically, I’d like to take a closer look at some of the assumptions.
First, having a single income generally meant that the woman stayed home. While I’m as feminist as the next person and think women of course should have freedom to work, the trade off is childcare costs.
Second, the middle class “American Dream” of the 1950s was a lot simpler. It’s one thing to acknowledge the insane cost of housing, but even the 50s/60s “keeping up with the Joneses” era didn’t have the same expenses of today. Smartphones and all the tech and gadgets didn’t exist, and overseas vacations were rare.
Third, and this is where I actually don’t know the answer and am asking the audience… to what extent was the “American Dream” affordable to the AVERAGE person, versus an aspiration that could be achieved by competing and moving up the ladder? Maybe in the 1990s? (I say this because I grew up solidly middle class in the 90s, my parents both worked but they had normal jobs, were not executives, didn’t work excessive hours, and could afford a SFH, three cars, summer camps, and the occasional overseas vacation plus Florida).
I DO believe that a) we have a housing crisis, and b) “hustle culture” is toxic. But I do have doubts about the idea that life used to be so much easier and that younger generations have it uniquely hard.
One such is - and this is where some of my friends on the populist left beer into Make America Great Again territory in this glorification of the past - the idea that once upon a time, a middle class worker could afford a house in the suburbs and raise kids on a single income.
The rationale behind this nostalgia is that income inequality has grown, and the combination of corporate greed-driven inflation and stagnant wages has lowered the purchasing power of your average workaday nine-to-five bloke, and that only the ultra rich can afford the “American Dream” lifestyle of a single family home with a white picket fence, etc. And that somebody somewhere along the line, probably Ronald Reagan, ruined everything.
While the sentiment resonates with me ideologically, I’d like to take a closer look at some of the assumptions.
First, having a single income generally meant that the woman stayed home. While I’m as feminist as the next person and think women of course should have freedom to work, the trade off is childcare costs.
Second, the middle class “American Dream” of the 1950s was a lot simpler. It’s one thing to acknowledge the insane cost of housing, but even the 50s/60s “keeping up with the Joneses” era didn’t have the same expenses of today. Smartphones and all the tech and gadgets didn’t exist, and overseas vacations were rare.
Third, and this is where I actually don’t know the answer and am asking the audience… to what extent was the “American Dream” affordable to the AVERAGE person, versus an aspiration that could be achieved by competing and moving up the ladder? Maybe in the 1990s? (I say this because I grew up solidly middle class in the 90s, my parents both worked but they had normal jobs, were not executives, didn’t work excessive hours, and could afford a SFH, three cars, summer camps, and the occasional overseas vacation plus Florida).
I DO believe that a) we have a housing crisis, and b) “hustle culture” is toxic. But I do have doubts about the idea that life used to be so much easier and that younger generations have it uniquely hard.