Anonymous
01/07/2024 11:06
Subject: The Misguided War on the SAT
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Not sure why this was deleted. Maybe because I pasted the particle.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/07/briefing/the-misguided-war-on-the-sat.html
When I have asked university administrators whether they were aware of the research showing the value of test scores, they have generally said they were. But several told me, not for quotation, that they feared the political reaction on their campuses and in the media if they reinstated tests. “It’s not politically correct,” Charles Deacon, the longtime admissions dean at Georgetown University, which does require test scores, has told the journalist Jeffrey Selingo.
MIT
Without test scores, Schmill explained, admissions officers were left with two unappealing options. They would have to guess which students were likely to do well at M.I.T. — and almost certainly guess wrong sometimes, rejecting qualified applicants while admitting weaker ones. Or M.I.T. would need to reject more students from less advantaged high schools and admit more from the private schools and advantaged public schools that have a strong record of producing well-qualified students.
“Once we brought the test requirement back, we admitted the most diverse class that we ever had in our history,” Schmill told me. “Having test scores was helpful.”
2 colleges. Cute. There are thousands that are test optional or test blind.
For now. We'll see if things change. A lot of the "test optional" started during Covid, because many students in the high school class of 2021 really didn't have much opportunity to take SAT/ACT tests. Slowly, some schools are requiring it again (yes, more than just two.)
About a year ago we did a campus tour of a school where the admissions officer said that the SAT/ACT wasn't really didn't matter because "it's just your zipcode." My kid was really turned off by that and didn't apply.
quoting my own post here. That should have said "said that the SAT/ACT really didn't matter..." that "wasn't" shouldn't be there.
Anonymous
01/07/2024 10:55
Subject: The Misguided War on the SAT
Of course more data points are better than fewer. But the problem with the SAT/ACT is the arms race mentality. People seem to think there is a huge difference between a 1500 and a 1550 or a 33/34. There isn’t. The best use of those tests is as a confirmatory point of readiness to gauge GPA, not as a competition in and of itself. The 4.0 gpa kid with a 1020 might not be really ready for Hopkins. But the difference between the 1400 and 1470 is just noise.
Both those exams test reading comprehension and pretty basic math concepts in esoteric ways that have not very much to do with actual academic work. Colleges should decide what they think an appropriate level is for them and just have College Board/ACT to tell them whether the applicant is over or under it.
Both those exams test reading comprehension and pretty basic math concepts in esoteric ways that have not very much to do with actual academic work. Colleges should decide what they think an appropriate level is for them and just have College Board/ACT to tell them whether the applicant is over or under it.
Anonymous
01/07/2024 10:53
Subject: The Misguided War on the SAT
One might wonder if the very fact of this article appearing in the NYT today is an indication of a move back toward tests, whether required or at least recommended rather than "optional."
Anonymous
01/07/2024 10:48
Subject: The Misguided War on the SAT
Anonymous wrote:DP here. This is a good article.
For those of you commenting without reading the article, I highly recommend you read it first. The reporter mentions multiple recent studies that all show the same thing - test scores are more predictive of future college success than high school grades.
Most college admissions officials agree that test scores should be used as one factor towards admissions but they are scared of political backlash if they bring test scores back.
Yes, gpa is generally more predictive than test scores alone but not as predictive as gpa plus test scores. Further, gpa has become less and less predictive as grades have become inflated. Source: UC system and Purdue research.
Anonymous
01/07/2024 10:43
Subject: The Misguided War on the SAT
I entirely agree, OP. Yet we have people trying to show bogus research claiming standardized test scores are not associated with college performance. As a research scientist, I find that so sad.
Anonymous
01/07/2024 10:39
Subject: The Misguided War on the SAT
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Not sure why this was deleted. Maybe because I pasted the particle.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/07/briefing/the-misguided-war-on-the-sat.html
When I have asked university administrators whether they were aware of the research showing the value of test scores, they have generally said they were. But several told me, not for quotation, that they feared the political reaction on their campuses and in the media if they reinstated tests. “It’s not politically correct,” Charles Deacon, the longtime admissions dean at Georgetown University, which does require test scores, has told the journalist Jeffrey Selingo.
MIT
Without test scores, Schmill explained, admissions officers were left with two unappealing options. They would have to guess which students were likely to do well at M.I.T. — and almost certainly guess wrong sometimes, rejecting qualified applicants while admitting weaker ones. Or M.I.T. would need to reject more students from less advantaged high schools and admit more from the private schools and advantaged public schools that have a strong record of producing well-qualified students.
“Once we brought the test requirement back, we admitted the most diverse class that we ever had in our history,” Schmill told me. “Having test scores was helpful.”
2 colleges. Cute. There are thousands that are test optional or test blind.
For now. We'll see if things change. A lot of the "test optional" started during Covid, because many students in the high school class of 2021 really didn't have much opportunity to take SAT/ACT tests. Slowly, some schools are requiring it again (yes, more than just two.)
About a year ago we did a campus tour of a school where the admissions officer said that the SAT/ACT wasn't really didn't matter because "it's just your zipcode." My kid was really turned off by that and didn't apply.
Anonymous
01/07/2024 10:06
Subject: The Misguided War on the SAT
Anonymous wrote:There is other excellent research that questions the ability if test scores to determine acumen or college success. TO is a good approach -- consider test scores if you want to submit. So, that rural kid w/unknown school can use that as part of their portfolio.
So tired of people trying to make this a thing again and again. If you invested in enrichment to yield high scores and expect that to mean more than it does (looking at you, mag parents who have kids submit SAT and ACT), that's on you. How about you focus on helping your kid present the best portfolio they can.
What would that be? Essay written by consultants, EC that is set up by parents or money, etc...If we are measuring students academic performance GPA, SAT would be reflection of students caliber.
Anonymous
01/07/2024 09:59
Subject: The Misguided War on the SAT
DP here. This is a good article.
For those of you commenting without reading the article, I highly recommend you read it first. The reporter mentions multiple recent studies that all show the same thing - test scores are more predictive of future college success than high school grades.
Most college admissions officials agree that test scores should be used as one factor towards admissions but they are scared of political backlash if they bring test scores back.
For those of you commenting without reading the article, I highly recommend you read it first. The reporter mentions multiple recent studies that all show the same thing - test scores are more predictive of future college success than high school grades.
Most college admissions officials agree that test scores should be used as one factor towards admissions but they are scared of political backlash if they bring test scores back.
Anonymous
01/07/2024 09:53
Subject: The Misguided War on the SAT
There is other excellent research that questions the ability if test scores to determine acumen or college success. TO is a good approach -- consider test scores if you want to submit. So, that rural kid w/unknown school can use that as part of their portfolio.
So tired of people trying to make this a thing again and again. If you invested in enrichment to yield high scores and expect that to mean more than it does (looking at you, mag parents who have kids submit SAT and ACT), that's on you. How about you focus on helping your kid present the best portfolio they can.
So tired of people trying to make this a thing again and again. If you invested in enrichment to yield high scores and expect that to mean more than it does (looking at you, mag parents who have kids submit SAT and ACT), that's on you. How about you focus on helping your kid present the best portfolio they can.
Anonymous
01/07/2024 09:47
Subject: The Misguided War on the SAT
Anonymous wrote:Not sure why this was deleted. Maybe because I pasted the particle.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/07/briefing/the-misguided-war-on-the-sat.html
When I have asked university administrators whether they were aware of the research showing the value of test scores, they have generally said they were. But several told me, not for quotation, that they feared the political reaction on their campuses and in the media if they reinstated tests. “It’s not politically correct,” Charles Deacon, the longtime admissions dean at Georgetown University, which does require test scores, has told the journalist Jeffrey Selingo.
MIT
Without test scores, Schmill explained, admissions officers were left with two unappealing options. They would have to guess which students were likely to do well at M.I.T. — and almost certainly guess wrong sometimes, rejecting qualified applicants while admitting weaker ones. Or M.I.T. would need to reject more students from less advantaged high schools and admit more from the private schools and advantaged public schools that have a strong record of producing well-qualified students.
“Once we brought the test requirement back, we admitted the most diverse class that we ever had in our history,” Schmill told me. “Having test scores was helpful.”
2 colleges. Cute. There are thousands that are test optional or test blind.
Anonymous
01/07/2024 09:40
Subject: The Misguided War on the SAT
Anonymous wrote:This exact topic has been covered recently many, many times on DCUM. Good topic but no need to keep restarting with a different intro.
But frankly so have many other topics
Anonymous
01/07/2024 09:26
Subject: The Misguided War on the SAT
This exact topic has been covered recently many, many times on DCUM. Good topic but no need to keep restarting with a different intro.
Anonymous
01/07/2024 09:19
Subject: Re:The Misguided War on the SAT
Well - let’s hope test scores weigh heavily this cycle.
If you are from an affluent high school/area/zip code, it should be assumed your scores were low if you don’t submit.
The data shows tests are helpful for the disadvantaged- because it predicts potential fairly accurately.
All agreed GPAs were getting pretty irrelevant on their own.
If you are from an affluent high school/area/zip code, it should be assumed your scores were low if you don’t submit.
The data shows tests are helpful for the disadvantaged- because it predicts potential fairly accurately.
All agreed GPAs were getting pretty irrelevant on their own.
Anonymous
01/07/2024 09:15
Subject: The Misguided War on the SAT
“When you don’t have test scores, the students who suffer most are those with high grades at relatively unknown high schools, the kind that rarely send kids to the Ivy League,” Deming, a Harvard economist, said. “The SAT is their lifeline.”
Anonymous
01/07/2024 09:14
Subject: The Misguided War on the SAT
Not sure why this was deleted. Maybe because I pasted the particle.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/07/briefing/the-misguided-war-on-the-sat.html
When I have asked university administrators whether they were aware of the research showing the value of test scores, they have generally said they were. But several told me, not for quotation, that they feared the political reaction on their campuses and in the media if they reinstated tests. “It’s not politically correct,” Charles Deacon, the longtime admissions dean at Georgetown University, which does require test scores, has told the journalist Jeffrey Selingo.
MIT
Without test scores, Schmill explained, admissions officers were left with two unappealing options. They would have to guess which students were likely to do well at M.I.T. — and almost certainly guess wrong sometimes, rejecting qualified applicants while admitting weaker ones. Or M.I.T. would need to reject more students from less advantaged high schools and admit more from the private schools and advantaged public schools that have a strong record of producing well-qualified students.
“Once we brought the test requirement back, we admitted the most diverse class that we ever had in our history,” Schmill told me. “Having test scores was helpful.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/07/briefing/the-misguided-war-on-the-sat.html
When I have asked university administrators whether they were aware of the research showing the value of test scores, they have generally said they were. But several told me, not for quotation, that they feared the political reaction on their campuses and in the media if they reinstated tests. “It’s not politically correct,” Charles Deacon, the longtime admissions dean at Georgetown University, which does require test scores, has told the journalist Jeffrey Selingo.
MIT
Without test scores, Schmill explained, admissions officers were left with two unappealing options. They would have to guess which students were likely to do well at M.I.T. — and almost certainly guess wrong sometimes, rejecting qualified applicants while admitting weaker ones. Or M.I.T. would need to reject more students from less advantaged high schools and admit more from the private schools and advantaged public schools that have a strong record of producing well-qualified students.
“Once we brought the test requirement back, we admitted the most diverse class that we ever had in our history,” Schmill told me. “Having test scores was helpful.”