Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The issue is immigration. People from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan don't seem particularly interested in becoming Dutch and accepting Dutch norms - whether the role of women, LGBTQ, work, etc etc. Plus all the violence these immigrants often bring. The Dutch are fed up. It's a small country. It's not like there's a lot of space. Everyone needs to live together. The immigrants that Holland has taken do not seem inclined to assimilate, even with all the benefits. The Dutch are as liberal as ever. But the immigrants are not generally tolerant. So there's a very strong electoral backlash.

Why don't you see these attitudes in the American Muslim diaspora?

DP. Because it’s the numbers game.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The issue is immigration. People from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan don't seem particularly interested in becoming Dutch and accepting Dutch norms - whether the role of women, LGBTQ, work, etc etc. Plus all the violence these immigrants often bring. The Dutch are fed up. It's a small country. It's not like there's a lot of space. Everyone needs to live together. The immigrants that Holland has taken do not seem inclined to assimilate, even with all the benefits. The Dutch are as liberal as ever. But the immigrants are not generally tolerant. So there's a very strong electoral backlash.

Why don't you see these attitudes in the American Muslim diaspora?

That's a very good question. And the fact that we don't have this is genuinely what makes America pretty good. Even Canada - lots of space - has trouble assimilating some immigrant groups - Muslims and Indians in particular.

The US has always been a nation of immigrants. And most groups have experienced backlash - Irish, Italians, Mexicans. But we are the melting pot. By the second generation, everyone assimilates and is American. It's the strength of this country.

Holland - and all of Europe really - are not nations of immigrants. They are nation-states. You are Dutch, Swedish, Italian - or you are not. These are countries borne of blood, history and language. They are not countries borne from enlightenment ideas, like the US was. So that's one challenge. No one will ever accept someone from Afghanistan to be genuinely Dutch.

The second problem is the migrants themselves. For legal migration, the US vets people. Europe just took on a whole bunch of migrants from the Middle East, South Asia, and sub-Sahara Africa with no vetting at all. Most often they have no education. No skills. They are often very religious. They're very retrograde with their views on women. They do not vibe at all with modern Europe. They take the benefits. Don't often work. And simmer in their resentment.

It's very combustible, as we saw with the rioting in France last year. And most Europeans have had enough of this. They will vote right wing. But right wing in Europe is not the same as America. People want their health care. People want pensions. People want affordable education. That's not an issue at all. It's the migrants.

Anonymous wrote:The issue is that the Netherlands wanted guest workers in the 60’s and 70’s so invited workers from Turkey and Morocco to go to the Netherlands and work. Add to that immigrants from Muslim former Dutch colonies like Indonesia. These immigrants were welcomed to work but not really integrate. There are really few under 5 to 10% intermarriage between Dutch and Moroccan immigrants.

So if you don’t feel welcomed you stuck with your own. The right wingers believe from a leading Dutch right winger-
“Islam is not only a religion, it is a way of life. In this, its vision goes counter to the liberal separation of church and state.”

Well, he isn't lying. These are theocracies, correct?

The Islamic Republic of Iran
The Islamic Republic of Pakistan
The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan
The Hasemite Kingdom of Jordan

Islam IS a way of life. Islamic Law. Sharia.

How is what he says not true?

Anonymous wrote:The issue is immigration. People from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan don't seem particularly interested in becoming Dutch and accepting Dutch norms - whether the role of women, LGBTQ, work, etc etc. Plus all the violence these immigrants often bring. The Dutch are fed up. It's a small country. It's not like there's a lot of space. Everyone needs to live together. The immigrants that Holland has taken do not seem inclined to assimilate, even with all the benefits. The Dutch are as liberal as ever. But the immigrants are not generally tolerant. So there's a very strong electoral backlash.

Why don't you see these attitudes in the American Muslim diaspora?

The issue is that the Netherlands wanted guest workers in the 60’s and 70’s so invited workers from Turkey and Morocco to go to the Netherlands and work. Add to that immigrants from Muslim former Dutch colonies like Indonesia. These immigrants were welcomed to work but not really integrate. There are really few under 5 to 10% intermarriage between Dutch and Moroccan immigrants.

So if you don’t feel welcomed you stuck with your own. The right wingers believe from a leading Dutch right winger-
“Islam is not only a religion, it is a way of life. In this, its vision goes counter to the liberal separation of church and state.”

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think people understand how shattering this is

Unlike Italy, where meloni was projected to win and Italy has had right wing leaders before, NL is one of the most centrist/center left/center right countries on the planet. It’s even memed as the most neoliberal country in the world

Just goes to show you how thoroughly the tentacles of trumpism penetrate the ill-informed. I hope the Dutch enjoy their new pariah status! I’m sure though they will be well rewarded by their masters in Beijing and Moscow.

Trumpism? What does Trump have to do with this? This may surprise you, but there are quite a few democrats who have issues with wide open borders and unchecked and uncontrolled immigration also.

If you don't assimilate to the new country, the inhabitants eventually don't want you there.

The issue is immigration. People from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan don't seem particularly interested in becoming Dutch and accepting Dutch norms - whether the role of women, LGBTQ, work, etc etc. Plus all the violence these immigrants often bring. The Dutch are fed up. It's a small country. It's not like there's a lot of space. Everyone needs to live together. The immigrants that Holland has taken do not seem inclined to assimilate, even with all the benefits. The Dutch are as liberal as ever. But the immigrants are not generally tolerant. So there's a very strong electoral backlash.

Anonymous wrote:Wow! Netherlands was the most progressive country for literally centuries. It is in their DNA.
Shocking. Though having lived in Europe 20+ years ago and going back (to Netherlands) last year, I can also understand it.

Melting pots only work when the ingredients can mix.

That’s part of the issue - Dutch progressives fear that socially conservative poorly educated immigrants undermine their traditionally progressive values around GTLBQ / legal prostitution/ legal recreational drug use and euthanasia.

Wow! Netherlands was the most progressive country for literally centuries. It is in their DNA.
Shocking. Though having lived in Europe 20+ years ago and going back (to Netherlands) last year, I can also understand it.

Melting pots only work when the ingredients can mix.

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think people understand how shattering this is

Unlike Italy, where meloni was projected to win and Italy has had right wing leaders before, NL is one of the most centrist/center left/center right countries on the planet. It’s even memed as the most neoliberal country in the world

Just goes to show you how thoroughly the tentacles of trumpism penetrate the ill-informed. I hope the Dutch enjoy their new pariah status! I’m sure though they will be well rewarded by their masters in Beijing and Moscow.

I don’t think people understand how shattering this is

Unlike Italy, where meloni was projected to win and Italy has had right wing leaders before, NL is one of the most centrist/center left/center right countries on the planet. It’s even memed as the most neoliberal country in the world

Nothing like hate for foreigners to bring people together in politics.

The Dutch will be No. 1 again,” Wilders added. “The people must get their nation back.”

Sound familiar?

Also proposing a referendum on EU status for NL

https://apnews.com/article/netherlands-election-candidates-prime-minister-f31f57a856f006ff0f2fc4984acaca6b

Geert Wilders shocking path to victory

Wilders is a leading anti-Islamist who has sounded the alarm for decades on Islam

The current center right governing party was given over to a woman — Dilan Yeşilgöz — a Turkish refugee from mark rutte.

She ran on anti-immigration but obviously doesn’t have the credentials and credibility on this issue like Geert.

No one I mean no one would’ve guessed Geert would win. It’s like AfD winning a plurality in Germany.