https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/f6e2-2576516/VPSL_RL_Game_Day_Procedures_2023-24.pdf?_gl=1*1jg995r*_ga*NTc2MzMxNTk1LjE2NzU0Mjg5Mjg.*_ga_PQ25JN9PJ8*MTY5MTY3OTA0OS4yMy4xLjE2OTE2NzkwNTIuMC4wLjA.#_ga=2.170348512.1962699477.1691669564-576331595.1675428928

Says unlimited for RL?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does ECNL RL also have the same sub rules?

At u13 in ENCL RL once subbed you are out for the rest of that half

I thought that only existed at the ECNL level and not the Regional?

At U13 it's hard to tell who will be playing at "the next level." I disagree with the subbing rules too but think tracking kids at that age before adolescence doesn't make a ton of sense.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does ECNL RL also have the same sub rules?

At u13 in ENCL RL once subbed you are out for the rest of that half

That makes no sense. At least ECNL and MLSnext can say that they are preparing kids for the next level. ECNLR is for kids who won't be playing at the next level

Anonymous wrote:Does ECNL RL also have the same sub rules?

At u13 in ENCL RL once subbed you are out for the rest of that half

Yeah - I mean, the argument that players need to be physically fit to play the whole game could be applied to any sport.

Do we limit subs in youth basketball? Do we limit subs in youth (American) football? Or any other youth sports?

Physical fitness is the least of our (USA’s) problems when it comes to soccer. If we are trying to develop as much soccer talent as we can, why wouldn’t we want to create a substitution rule that allows as many kids as possible on youth teams to get playing time?

Again, we’re talking about kids here - not the professional games.

Alternatively, if we aren’t going to be permissive with substitutions, we should decrease the maximum roster size for youth soccer so that more kids get playing time.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disagree with earlier posters. Restrictive subbing rules are needed at all levels starting around U15/16 to learn to play proper soccer and grow a pipeline for pro clubs and national teams. This is because a big part of soccer is learning how to manage a game in terms of your energy level, individually and as a team. Having fresh legs running at you with unlimited subs is the absolute worst way to develop creative players who can use spaces and control the pace of the game and manage and dictate a game.

Also, in a game constantly flooded with fresh legs off the bench, there is little space to exploit as it becomes inevitably a game of kick and rush, and it's one of the reasons why American soccer has traditionally been full of athletes who have no idea how to control a game. As players get older, bigger and faster, creativity and comfort on the ball and tactical skills are hard to develop when there are 10 pairs of fresh legs running at you continuously at full speed (noone has to worry about getting tired, and not hustling enough would lead to the player being taken off). NCAA rules need to change for the good of American soccer. MLS Next and DA before that are doing the right thing by trying to get kids to play the proper way. For the longest time, America did not develop ball-playing center backs, tactically and technically sound central midfielders and playmakers. The ones that are now being developed are coming through the DA/MLS Next system, and the sub rules I believe help in that.

The youth coaches should be training kids in how to manage a game. Anyone who starts a soccer game should be expected to play the full game. This needs fitness, enormous mental strength, and the ability to manage the rhythm and pace of the game. Those who come in as subs should be prepared to play limited role in most cases and provide the lift off the bench, an important part of the training that is not replicated by drifting in and out of the field like hockey. Starters in any game should build the mental strength and the smarts to preserve their ability to be able to do a 60-yard sprint in the 90th minute of a game, when their bodies and minds are screaming "no". That's what makes good soccer players. Not the safety net of leaving the field when you are tired, rest on the bench and come back when you are fresh. To manage playing time and injuries, starters should be rotated as opposed to starting the same set of players every game and subbing them in and out depending who is tired.

BTW, getting used to this for the older age groups in youth soccer is good training for NCAA careers as well. In most good college teams, starters end up playing a huge chunk of most games. That's because good teams know the value of getting into and being in rhythm, which is not possible with repeated subs.

How many players on any ECNL team will play pro vs play college? The rules should mirror college rules

Quick research, so the numbers might be off a bit:
There are 12 NWSL teams with rosters of roughly 26. There are probably more in the "pro pipeline" so lets be generous and go with 50 per team with a real shot at playing pro in the US. So 600 players.
The USWNT carries 23 at the World Cup, but has a larger overall pool. However, all of those players are probably already accounted for in the pro pipeline.

There are over 400,000 women/girls soccer players playing high school or below.
So why are we applying FIFA/Pro substitution rules? To accommodate the 0.15% of players who might go pro?

By contrast, there are approximately 41,000 women NCAA soccer players. Still not great odds, but that means approximately 10% of youth players will play in college.

So, for the high school age groups, which substitution rules make more sense? The pro rules, or NCAA rules? Neither rule set allows for free substitution, which is good, as the prior poster stated, you need to learn to manage fitness and the game. But applying the pro ruleset is simply wrong. Why do the "elite" youth leagues and tournaments do this?

Absolutely this ^^^

The idea that the only way to get the kids ready is to make sure the majority play a full 90 is a P.E. instructor thinking that so dominates American youth sports. It's nonsense. Utter nonsense.

Kids under 18 develop at different speeds and ages. Restrictive subbing drives kids out of the sport and misses gems who are 3-6-9 months behind in physical development. It's just ridiculous.

Does ECNL RL also have the same sub rules?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do leagues such as MLS Next, ECNL, etc., have such restrictive / pro-style subbing rules? Not being allowed re-entry is counter-productive.
For the vast majority of players, the goal is prep for college. And even that is a very small number of players (and I'm not just limiting this to the very small number of players going to D1 power programs. Lower level D1 and all D3 is very accomplished). All of the leagues would be far better served by adopting the NCAA substitution rules. No re-entry during the first half. Unlimited subs in the second half.
Thoughts?

I think unlimited subs and reentry should be the rule for all levels. Injuries and over use problem occur because of the sub rules. I want to see the star players at their best not tired and drag themselves around the field. It would also help with more players getting time on the field.

As for the ECNL that is just a college minor league. The game results really do not matter. It is all about how you do as an individual. The rules should be the same as college.

ECNL game results really do matter. You definitely want to make the playoffs. There are way more college scouts there than any other event.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disagree with earlier posters. Restrictive subbing rules are needed at all levels starting around U15/16 to learn to play proper soccer and grow a pipeline for pro clubs and national teams. This is because a big part of soccer is learning how to manage a game in terms of your energy level, individually and as a team. Having fresh legs running at you with unlimited subs is the absolute worst way to develop creative players who can use spaces and control the pace of the game and manage and dictate a game.

Also, in a game constantly flooded with fresh legs off the bench, there is little space to exploit as it becomes inevitably a game of kick and rush, and it's one of the reasons why American soccer has traditionally been full of athletes who have no idea how to control a game. As players get older, bigger and faster, creativity and comfort on the ball and tactical skills are hard to develop when there are 10 pairs of fresh legs running at you continuously at full speed (noone has to worry about getting tired, and not hustling enough would lead to the player being taken off). NCAA rules need to change for the good of American soccer. MLS Next and DA before that are doing the right thing by trying to get kids to play the proper way. For the longest time, America did not develop ball-playing center backs, tactically and technically sound central midfielders and playmakers. The ones that are now being developed are coming through the DA/MLS Next system, and the sub rules I believe help in that.

The youth coaches should be training kids in how to manage a game. Anyone who starts a soccer game should be expected to play the full game. This needs fitness, enormous mental strength, and the ability to manage the rhythm and pace of the game. Those who come in as subs should be prepared to play limited role in most cases and provide the lift off the bench, an important part of the training that is not replicated by drifting in and out of the field like hockey. Starters in any game should build the mental strength and the smarts to preserve their ability to be able to do a 60-yard sprint in the 90th minute of a game, when their bodies and minds are screaming "no". That's what makes good soccer players. Not the safety net of leaving the field when you are tired, rest on the bench and come back when you are fresh. To manage playing time and injuries, starters should be rotated as opposed to starting the same set of players every game and subbing them in and out depending who is tired.

BTW, getting used to this for the older age groups in youth soccer is good training for NCAA careers as well. In most good college teams, starters end up playing a huge chunk of most games. That's because good teams know the value of getting into and being in rhythm, which is not possible with repeated subs.

How many players on any ECNL team will play pro vs play college? The rules should mirror college rules

Quick research, so the numbers might be off a bit:
There are 12 NWSL teams with rosters of roughly 26. There are probably more in the "pro pipeline" so lets be generous and go with 50 per team with a real shot at playing pro in the US. So 600 players.
The USWNT carries 23 at the World Cup, but has a larger overall pool. However, all of those players are probably already accounted for in the pro pipeline.

There are over 400,000 women/girls soccer players playing high school or below.
So why are we applying FIFA/Pro substitution rules? To accommodate the 0.15% of players who might go pro?

By contrast, there are approximately 41,000 women NCAA soccer players. Still not great odds, but that means approximately 10% of youth players will play in college.

So, for the high school age groups, which substitution rules make more sense? The pro rules, or NCAA rules? Neither rule set allows for free substitution, which is good, as the prior poster stated, you need to learn to manage fitness and the game. But applying the pro ruleset is simply wrong. Why do the "elite" youth leagues and tournaments do this?

Anonymous wrote:Disagree with earlier posters. Restrictive subbing rules are needed at all levels starting around U15/16 to learn to play proper soccer and grow a pipeline for pro clubs and national teams. This is because a big part of soccer is learning how to manage a game in terms of your energy level, individually and as a team. Having fresh legs running at you with unlimited subs is the absolute worst way to develop creative players who can use spaces and control the pace of the game and manage and dictate a game.

Also, in a game constantly flooded with fresh legs off the bench, there is little space to exploit as it becomes inevitably a game of kick and rush, and it's one of the reasons why American soccer has traditionally been full of athletes who have no idea how to control a game. As players get older, bigger and faster, creativity and comfort on the ball and tactical skills are hard to develop when there are 10 pairs of fresh legs running at you continuously at full speed (noone has to worry about getting tired, and not hustling enough would lead to the player being taken off). NCAA rules need to change for the good of American soccer. MLS Next and DA before that are doing the right thing by trying to get kids to play the proper way. For the longest time, America did not develop ball-playing center backs, tactically and technically sound central midfielders and playmakers. The ones that are now being developed are coming through the DA/MLS Next system, and the sub rules I believe help in that.

The youth coaches should be training kids in how to manage a game. Anyone who starts a soccer game should be expected to play the full game. This needs fitness, enormous mental strength, and the ability to manage the rhythm and pace of the game. Those who come in as subs should be prepared to play limited role in most cases and provide the lift off the bench, an important part of the training that is not replicated by drifting in and out of the field like hockey. Starters in any game should build the mental strength and the smarts to preserve their ability to be able to do a 60-yard sprint in the 90th minute of a game, when their bodies and minds are screaming "no". That's what makes good soccer players. Not the safety net of leaving the field when you are tired, rest on the bench and come back when you are fresh. To manage playing time and injuries, starters should be rotated as opposed to starting the same set of players every game and subbing them in and out depending who is tired.

BTW, getting used to this for the older age groups in youth soccer is good training for NCAA careers as well. In most good college teams, starters end up playing a huge chunk of most games. That's because good teams know the value of getting into and being in rhythm, which is not possible with repeated subs.

How many players on any ECNL team will play pro vs play college? The rules should mirror college rules

Disagree with earlier posters. Restrictive subbing rules are needed at all levels starting around U15/16 to learn to play proper soccer and grow a pipeline for pro clubs and national teams. This is because a big part of soccer is learning how to manage a game in terms of your energy level, individually and as a team. Having fresh legs running at you with unlimited subs is the absolute worst way to develop creative players who can use spaces and control the pace of the game and manage and dictate a game.

Also, in a game constantly flooded with fresh legs off the bench, there is little space to exploit as it becomes inevitably a game of kick and rush, and it's one of the reasons why American soccer has traditionally been full of athletes who have no idea how to control a game. As players get older, bigger and faster, creativity and comfort on the ball and tactical skills are hard to develop when there are 10 pairs of fresh legs running at you continuously at full speed (noone has to worry about getting tired, and not hustling enough would lead to the player being taken off). NCAA rules need to change for the good of American soccer. MLS Next and DA before that are doing the right thing by trying to get kids to play the proper way. For the longest time, America did not develop ball-playing center backs, tactically and technically sound central midfielders and playmakers. The ones that are now being developed are coming through the DA/MLS Next system, and the sub rules I believe help in that.

The youth coaches should be training kids in how to manage a game. Anyone who starts a soccer game should be expected to play the full game. This needs fitness, enormous mental strength, and the ability to manage the rhythm and pace of the game. Those who come in as subs should be prepared to play limited role in most cases and provide the lift off the bench, an important part of the training that is not replicated by drifting in and out of the field like hockey. Starters in any game should build the mental strength and the smarts to preserve their ability to be able to do a 60-yard sprint in the 90th minute of a game, when their bodies and minds are screaming "no". That's what makes good soccer players. Not the safety net of leaving the field when you are tired, rest on the bench and come back when you are fresh. To manage playing time and injuries, starters should be rotated as opposed to starting the same set of players every game and subbing them in and out depending who is tired.

BTW, getting used to this for the older age groups in youth soccer is good training for NCAA careers as well. In most good college teams, starters end up playing a huge chunk of most games. That's because good teams know the value of getting into and being in rhythm, which is not possible with repeated subs.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I always thought that the primary reason for the subbing rules was to provide greater parity among teams, i.e., it's easier for smaller clubs to field the same number of competitive players as larger clubs when there is an upper limit on the number of competitive players that can play in any game (i.e., starting 11 plus X number of subs).

For professional clubs (and maybe even collegiate teams) maybe that makes sense.

But for youth soccer---where (1) it's very easy to field a full team; (2) development of the youth players is (or should be) a primary driver of the rules; and (3) we're talking about kids, so ensuring that they aren't overworked is important---placing limits on subs is a bad idea in my opinion.

Maybe I'm missing something though.

Anonymous wrote:Why do leagues such as MLS Next, ECNL, etc., have such restrictive / pro-style subbing rules? Not being allowed re-entry is counter-productive.
For the vast majority of players, the goal is prep for college. And even that is a very small number of players (and I'm not just limiting this to the very small number of players going to D1 power programs. Lower level D1 and all D3 is very accomplished). All of the leagues would be far better served by adopting the NCAA substitution rules. No re-entry during the first half. Unlimited subs in the second half.
Thoughts?

I think unlimited subs and reentry should be the rule for all levels. Injuries and over use problem occur because of the sub rules. I want to see the star players at their best not tired and drag themselves around the field. It would also help with more players getting time on the field.

As for the ECNL that is just a college minor league. The game results really do not matter. It is all about how you do as an individual. The rules should be the same as college.

Why do leagues such as MLS Next, ECNL, etc., have such restrictive / pro-style subbing rules? Not being allowed re-entry is counter-productive.
For the vast majority of players, the goal is prep for college. And even that is a very small number of players (and I'm not just limiting this to the very small number of players going to D1 power programs. Lower level D1 and all D3 is very accomplished). All of the leagues would be far better served by adopting the NCAA substitution rules. No re-entry during the first half. Unlimited subs in the second half.
Thoughts?