Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I am with you and my patience with it wears thin at times too. I'm further out than you (18 years) and no longer actually practice law, though work in consulting in a way that relies on my legal background. I've taken two left turns in my career in order to gain flexibility and work/life balance, and am at a place where I really like both my work and my lifestyle.

I have friends, colleagues, and old law school classmates who stuck out the Big Law track and for the most part are now partners. Some of them are happy. Some of them are not. The main differentiator is whether they chose their life or just let it happen. The people who were thoughtful in their choice of firm, practice area, and approach to their career generally have more satisfaction at this point and in some cases are really reaping the rewards of earlier hard work, instead of descending into the pit of working more and more hours the further into their career they go.

No one is every going to feel sorry for someone making 500k-3 million a year. I might be understanding of how sometimes life doesn't turn out as you hoped, but I don't feel sorry for you. And yes, you absolutely could decide today to change your life and make other choices. Worst case, you could be in a new job with a better lifestyle and still very financial secure and comfortable within a year. Most people could do it in less. They are afraid to. They don't know what they want in life. It's easier for them to go down their unhappy path than to make an affirmative choice about their lives.

I think you too are ignorant about how difficult the exit is. I personally know 5 (!) partners off the top of my head who exited for fedgov only after being promoted to partner because they simply never got an offer before then, despite applying and interviewing. They didn’t do it sooner because they were afraid or unstrategic or any of that. In fact the strategy/practice area is part of what it makes it hard. You have to wait for the right job at the right place for your relevant experience, and then there are good odds you’ll get passed over when you do have the opportunity to apply.

I underestimate nothing -- I am intimately aware of how these transitions occur.

The problem you are having is believing that someone working in a large law firm making a certain salary and doing a certain kind of work deserves only jobs that are at a certain level. They don't. If someone couldn't get the offer they wanted from the government or elsewhere until they made partner, that is a choice they made to pursue a certain career path that involved making partner at a law firm.

No one owes you anything. I'll repeat that: no one owes you anything. I don't care how hard it is for you to find your dream legal job or how hard it is to give up your 300k/yr income or how much the mortgage on your big house is or whatever. If you don't like your job, leave it. Don't spend years and years complaining to everyone who will listen that your super high paying job is really demanding.

I am in a small firm. They wanted me to 'buy-in' as a partner a few years ago, which required them to open their books. I declined partnership but also restructured my salary as a percentage of billables. I know what my bottom line needs to be so they make a little profit and I work the amount of hours I want to work, which is 1200-1400 hours per year. Clients send work directly to me because they want to work with me, which helps. At this point in my career (15 years out, much of that time in big law), we've got mortgage paid off, college covered and retirement is in decent shape, so I have a 'take it or leave it' attitude with my firm, and I'm finally happy. The key is financial security + strong boundaries.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s harder to leave than you think.

I spent 10 years in biglaw as a litigator. I never got offered a single job in-house or in Fed gov despite applying widely. I moved firms a couple times just trying to find more peace but it was just as bad, even when I did ultimately accept a pay cut.

One reason I couldn’t get an in-house offer is I couldn’t move to where clients are because of DH’s job which pretty much only exists in DC.

This. It’s not that easy to get a job like yours.

I’d be willing to bet your nonprofits fundraising department relies heavily on donations from big law firms….so these big law lawyers are subsidizing your salary….

NP and doubtful. Corporate donors, sure, but I don't think biglaw firms are bastions of charitable giving.

DP. Well then you’d think wrong.

PP here I didn't that to say that law firms are cheap, but they're small players in the scheme of things so numerically they're just not in a position to move the needle that much. The largest firm, Kirkland, has total revenues of about $6 billion and by the time you get to DLA (#3) it's $3.4 billion. By contrast, Walmart had over $500 billion of revenues and #4, CVS, had revenues of about $300 billion. Even if they donated in an equal percentage corporate donations would crush law firm donations.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s harder to leave than you think.

I spent 10 years in biglaw as a litigator. I never got offered a single job in-house or in Fed gov despite applying widely. I moved firms a couple times just trying to find more peace but it was just as bad, even when I did ultimately accept a pay cut.

One reason I couldn’t get an in-house offer is I couldn’t move to where clients are because of DH’s job which pretty much only exists in DC.

This. It’s not that easy to get a job like yours.

I’d be willing to bet your nonprofits fundraising department relies heavily on donations from big law firms….so these big law lawyers are subsidizing your salary….

NP and doubtful. Corporate donors, sure, but I don't think biglaw firms are bastions of charitable giving.

DP. Well then you’d think wrong.

Some law firms (and some lawyers) give a lot, but the idea that "big law lawyers are subsidizing" the salaries of lawyers at non-profits is silly. That's like saying that large corporations are "subsidizing" the work of lawyers at large law firms, and therefor lawyers and large law firms can never criticize anything an in-house lawyer does or says.

OP's employer pays her for her work. It's a non-profit so the money they pay her with comes largely from donors (though could also come from investments via an endowment, we don't know) but those people didn't donate so that OP could have her job. They donated so she could DO her job, which is to enact the organizations goals, which donors presumably care about getting accomplished.. She does not owe big law attorneys for her job, that's absurd.

Anonymous wrote:OP, I am with you and my patience with it wears thin at times too. I'm further out than you (18 years) and no longer actually practice law, though work in consulting in a way that relies on my legal background. I've taken two left turns in my career in order to gain flexibility and work/life balance, and am at a place where I really like both my work and my lifestyle.

I have friends, colleagues, and old law school classmates who stuck out the Big Law track and for the most part are now partners. Some of them are happy. Some of them are not. The main differentiator is whether they chose their life or just let it happen. The people who were thoughtful in their choice of firm, practice area, and approach to their career generally have more satisfaction at this point and in some cases are really reaping the rewards of earlier hard work, instead of descending into the pit of working more and more hours the further into their career they go.

No one is every going to feel sorry for someone making 500k-3 million a year. I might be understanding of how sometimes life doesn't turn out as you hoped, but I don't feel sorry for you. And yes, you absolutely could decide today to change your life and make other choices. Worst case, you could be in a new job with a better lifestyle and still very financial secure and comfortable within a year. Most people could do it in less. They are afraid to. They don't know what they want in life. It's easier for them to go down their unhappy path than to make an affirmative choice about their lives.

I think you too are ignorant about how difficult the exit is. I personally know 5 (!) partners off the top of my head who exited for fedgov only after being promoted to partner because they simply never got an offer before then, despite applying and interviewing. They didn’t do it sooner because they were afraid or unstrategic or any of that. In fact the strategy/practice area is part of what it makes it hard. You have to wait for the right job at the right place for your relevant experience, and then there are good odds you’ll get passed over when you do have the opportunity to apply.

It's a bit of selection bias, as you generally won't hear people who don't complain.

They may have a SAH spouse or a spouse without a lot of earning potential. If you make 20% of a biglaw salary and are slightly the breadwinner I would ballpark your salary at $150K and your spouse's salary at $125K which is a really good HHI. About the same as ours actually.

Also, I think some fields don't lend themselves as well to in-house or govt work so they may be legitimately choosing between biglaw or medium law where the workload is about the same between them.

I am in big law and agree the whiners are annoying. It's a choice. Stop whining and make other choices.

Golden handcuffs are very, very real. And I don’t say that flippantly. Once you have a nice home, nanny, private school, first class flights to Hawaii for family vacation, it can be very hard to go back even if you always told yourself you wouldn’t get locked into the lifestyle.

You also don’t know what other people’s full cost base it. Perhaps they are supporting other family members, are the primary breadwinner etc. that makes a move in house harder.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s harder to leave than you think.

I spent 10 years in biglaw as a litigator. I never got offered a single job in-house or in Fed gov despite applying widely. I moved firms a couple times just trying to find more peace but it was just as bad, even when I did ultimately accept a pay cut.

One reason I couldn’t get an in-house offer is I couldn’t move to where clients are because of DH’s job which pretty much only exists in DC.

This. It’s not that easy to get a job like yours.

I’d be willing to bet your nonprofits fundraising department relies heavily on donations from big law firms….so these big law lawyers are subsidizing your salary….

NP and doubtful. Corporate donors, sure, but I don't think biglaw firms are bastions of charitable giving.

DP. Well then you’d think wrong.

OP, I am with you and my patience with it wears thin at times too. I'm further out than you (18 years) and no longer actually practice law, though work in consulting in a way that relies on my legal background. I've taken two left turns in my career in order to gain flexibility and work/life balance, and am at a place where I really like both my work and my lifestyle.

I have friends, colleagues, and old law school classmates who stuck out the Big Law track and for the most part are now partners. Some of them are happy. Some of them are not. The main differentiator is whether they chose their life or just let it happen. The people who were thoughtful in their choice of firm, practice area, and approach to their career generally have more satisfaction at this point and in some cases are really reaping the rewards of earlier hard work, instead of descending into the pit of working more and more hours the further into their career they go.

No one is every going to feel sorry for someone making 500k-3 million a year. I might be understanding of how sometimes life doesn't turn out as you hoped, but I don't feel sorry for you. And yes, you absolutely could decide today to change your life and make other choices. Worst case, you could be in a new job with a better lifestyle and still very financial secure and comfortable within a year. Most people could do it in less. They are afraid to. They don't know what they want in life. It's easier for them to go down their unhappy path than to make an affirmative choice about their lives.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s harder to leave than you think.

I spent 10 years in biglaw as a litigator. I never got offered a single job in-house or in Fed gov despite applying widely. I moved firms a couple times just trying to find more peace but it was just as bad, even when I did ultimately accept a pay cut.

One reason I couldn’t get an in-house offer is I couldn’t move to where clients are because of DH’s job which pretty much only exists in DC.

This. It’s not that easy to get a job like yours.

I’d be willing to bet your nonprofits fundraising department relies heavily on donations from big law firms….so these big law lawyers are subsidizing your salary….

NP and doubtful. Corporate donors, sure, but I don't think biglaw firms are bastions of charitable giving.

Anonymous wrote:It’s harder to leave than you think.

I spent 10 years in biglaw as a litigator. I never got offered a single job in-house or in Fed gov despite applying widely. I moved firms a couple times just trying to find more peace but it was just as bad, even when I did ultimately accept a pay cut.

One reason I couldn’t get an in-house offer is I couldn’t move to where clients are because of DH’s job which pretty much only exists in DC.

This. It’s not that easy to get a job like yours.

I’d be willing to bet your nonprofits fundraising department relies heavily on donations from big law firms….so these big law lawyers are subsidizing your salary….

It’s harder to leave than you think.

I spent 10 years in biglaw as a litigator. I never got offered a single job in-house or in Fed gov despite applying widely. I moved firms a couple times just trying to find more peace but it was just as bad, even when I did ultimately accept a pay cut.

One reason I couldn’t get an in-house offer is I couldn’t move to where clients are because of DH’s job which pretty much only exists in DC.

This is more of a rant/vent/observation. I am a female attorney a little more than ten years out of law school. I work in-house for a non-profit managing a team of attorneys and legal assistants. The work is pretty interesting and my hours are decent but I don't make anywhere near what my friends who are at big law firms do. I have two little kids and deliberately chose this path because it is more family-friendly. We still have a very nice life! I am the breadwinner by a smidge.

Over the past six months or so, I have consistently had very annoying interactions with other attorney parents I meet. It's usually someone who is working in big or medium-sized law firms complaining about how it's a ton of work and the hours suck and it's so crazy and being an attorney is just awful. Generally, they will then talk about someone they know who went in-hours but how could never leave because they can't make less money and afford their life. LOL OMG HOW DO PEOPLE AFFORD TO LIVE HERE?

I am literally having these conversations at the bus stop in a neighborhood where pretty much everyone has a similarly-priced house. I usually just smile and say something, "Oh yea, it's hard to be a parent and work," and try to listen because I am generally a nice person and don't really want to start something with a neighbor, but I am so tired of this tone-deaf interaction. The vast majority of working parents make far less than someone working one of these "crazy busy 80 hour a week" jobs, often with less flexibility. Yet somehow, people are making it work!!! It's actually not even that hard. I probably make about a fifth of what the person who most recently made this complaint to me does, and I still consider myself extremely privileged to be able to raise my kid in this area.

Life is full of choices and if someone in one of these jobs wants to do something else, I am very certain they could go out and make it happen.

Is this kind of whining unique to lawyers or do I just notice it more because it's the world I know? No wonder people don't like us.