Anonymous
04/19/2023 12:56
Subject: Re:Millennial men pitched themselves as equal partners. What happened?
All of the above but also, it's because their (mostly male) bosses are older and mostly in traditional marriages, therefore the expectations at work are that you are the primary working parent able to devote yourself fully to work. And if millennial man wants to succeed at work, he starts to subconsciously slide out of domestic duties.
Anonymous
04/19/2023 12:54
Subject: Millennial men pitched themselves as equal partners. What happened?
Anonymous wrote:It's that they were young and naive when they said those things. They didn't understand how tiring and complicated it is when you have kids and both parents have real careers. They didn't understand anything at all about the parenting grind. They're more tired now than they were in their twenties. And some of them were saying those things and truly aspired to do it, but simply do not have the executive functioning ability.
Yeah. I think my husband and I both thought of our moms as having worked, and that's not exactly wrong, but they sure weren't working full time when their kids were young. And my career is a more demanding. And parenting is more demanding, too.
Anonymous
04/19/2023 12:53
Subject: Millennial men pitched themselves as equal partners. What happened?
I think men DID want equal partners, to be involved with children and egalitarian marriages. But it's just really, really hard. There's so much working against dual working parents.
-school hours are atrocious
-school is basically closed one day a week at least and you need to figure out coverage
-kids are always sick, all winter long
-parenting is extremely hard
-it's very, very difficult to be successful at your job if you left work at 3pm when school ends every day. My boss would have a fit and I'd miss out on lots of meetings.
Dh and I have figured it out and have a nice 40/60 marriage (I'm the 60%), but it's a combo of zero-5 minute commutes, telework, lots of grandparent help, back up nanny and a lot of work.
-school hours are atrocious
-school is basically closed one day a week at least and you need to figure out coverage
-kids are always sick, all winter long
-parenting is extremely hard
-it's very, very difficult to be successful at your job if you left work at 3pm when school ends every day. My boss would have a fit and I'd miss out on lots of meetings.
Dh and I have figured it out and have a nice 40/60 marriage (I'm the 60%), but it's a combo of zero-5 minute commutes, telework, lots of grandparent help, back up nanny and a lot of work.
Anonymous
04/19/2023 12:53
Subject: Millennial men pitched themselves as equal partners. What happened?
Solidly millennial here (35) and I can only think of one person in my orbit that is a SAHM.
The men I know pull their weight within their relationships and with the kids, and both sides of the couple have jobs that are fairly equal (I would say most of us are at about $400k HHI.)
I worked my tail off for my career and my husband and I earn about the same. Why would I give that up? I couldn't be with someone who expected me to downshift my career or step away from the workforce... which is fine... because there are plenty of people with different outlooks on the situation and are better suited for each other.
The men I know pull their weight within their relationships and with the kids, and both sides of the couple have jobs that are fairly equal (I would say most of us are at about $400k HHI.)
I worked my tail off for my career and my husband and I earn about the same. Why would I give that up? I couldn't be with someone who expected me to downshift my career or step away from the workforce... which is fine... because there are plenty of people with different outlooks on the situation and are better suited for each other.
Anonymous
04/19/2023 12:53
Subject: Millennial men pitched themselves as equal partners. What happened?
Anonymous wrote:Growing up, going to college and law school, I never knew a man who wanted a SAHW. Almost universally, high achieving men sought out peers to date. A guy who wanted to date a woman with a “mommy track” job or a low paying job was an unusual outlier. Most guys I knew were actively trying to date fairly high powered professional women, especially if they were on a high powered professional track themselves. One of my friends doggedly tried to pick up med students. Another one was over the moon when he met a woman who had just been admitted to Yale Law.
Also, the men I dated and the men I was friends with along the way professed to be all in on equal relationships. I knew lots of guys who prided themselves on cooking dinner as a date idea to show off how domestic they could be.
Now that we all have kids, it’s the tiny minority of men I know who have lived up to the promise. Their wives downshift while their careers take off. Best I can tell they’ve all forgotten how to cook or even grocery shop.
Was it just not modeled for them so they they didn’t know what they were signing up for? I’ve heard it speculated that boomer moms “did it all” meaning being a housewife and a corporate drone at the same time.
Is it that modern corporate jobs have just become so much more demanding you can’t perform on both fronts anymore?
Or are men just socialized to be more selfish?
Because its the best of both worlds for men. They don't have the burden of being the sole income provider and they can use their job/incompetence/internalized misogyny for women to do a majority of the household labor while they also work. And the kicker is before you have kids with those DINK incomes you have a certain lifestyle and both partners want to maintain it but its unlikely you can on one income. And most women that have had a job and their own income don't want to be a SAHP especially on less money. This is lessened with more kids because the total cost of childcare becomes prohibitive unless you are really raking it in but also the higher income the more stuff there is to manage later on (private schools, lessons, sports, extracurriculars, travel, etc.)
Anonymous
04/19/2023 12:52
Subject: Millennial men pitched themselves as equal partners. What happened?
Because once the men became fathers they found out they’d be fawned over and praised for doing 1/4 the work of their spouse. Why work harder if you get validation for doing so little?
Anonymous
04/19/2023 12:51
Subject: Millennial men pitched themselves as equal partners. What happened?
I think a lot of women prefer to be the default parent. It’s not true in all cases, but it is in a lot. I happily put my career on the back burner when we had kids. I still work, but it’s not as much as my DH. I think we are both happy with the arrangement. I don’t regret it at all.
Anonymous
04/19/2023 12:46
Subject: Millennial men pitched themselves as equal partners. What happened?
Anonymous wrote:Growing up, going to college and law school, I never knew a man who wanted a SAHW. Almost universally, high achieving men sought out peers to date. A guy who wanted to date a woman with a “mommy track” job or a low paying job was an unusual outlier. Most guys I knew were actively trying to date fairly high powered professional women, especially if they were on a high powered professional track themselves. One of my friends doggedly tried to pick up med students. Another one was over the moon when he met a woman who had just been admitted to Yale Law.
Also, the men I dated and the men I was friends with along the way professed to be all in on equal relationships. I knew lots of guys who prided themselves on cooking dinner as a date idea to show off how domestic they could be.
Now that we all have kids, it’s the tiny minority of men I know who have lived up to the promise. Their wives downshift while their careers take off. Best I can tell they’ve all forgotten how to cook or even grocery shop.
Was it just not modeled for them so they they didn’t know what they were signing up for? I’ve heard it speculated that boomer moms “did it all” meaning being a housewife and a corporate drone at the same time.
Is it that modern corporate jobs have just become so much more demanding you can’t perform on both fronts anymore?
Or are men just socialized to be more selfish?
You grew up in elite male circles.
Anonymous
04/19/2023 12:45
Subject: Millennial men pitched themselves as equal partners. What happened?
Anonymous wrote:IMO It’s because people are specifically socialized *out of* traditional relationships and buy into utopic visions of egalitarianism. Then real life hits and nature reveals herself to be uncompromising, thus the gender roles revert to the old fashioned no-fun way that things have been for thousands of years.
But not really, because in many cases the women actually meant it and the men don't want to support them, so they're still working.
Anonymous
04/19/2023 12:45
Subject: Re:Millennial men pitched themselves as equal partners. What happened?
There's an element or choice there too. A subset of women want to downshift their careers, or stop caring as much and prefer focusing on their kids, vs. those who feel coerced into it.
It is still unusual for a man to downshift in such a way and for it to be socially acceptable, and for the man to actually do a good job as the less ambitious parent, but not unheard of, especially as women have moved into traditionally male and highly comopensated professions.
It is still unusual for a man to downshift in such a way and for it to be socially acceptable, and for the man to actually do a good job as the less ambitious parent, but not unheard of, especially as women have moved into traditionally male and highly comopensated professions.
Anonymous
04/19/2023 12:41
Subject: Millennial men pitched themselves as equal partners. What happened?
IMO It’s because people are specifically socialized *out of* traditional relationships and buy into utopic visions of egalitarianism. Then real life hits and nature reveals herself to be uncompromising, thus the gender roles revert to the old fashioned no-fun way that things have been for thousands of years.
Anonymous
04/19/2023 12:41
Subject: Millennial men pitched themselves as equal partners. What happened?
My husband is also an equal partner. But his parents were an example for him.
Anonymous
04/19/2023 12:39
Subject: Millennial men pitched themselves as equal partners. What happened?
My husband is an equal partner. I've never downshifted my career.
Anonymous
04/19/2023 12:38
Subject: Millennial men pitched themselves as equal partners. What happened?
It's that they were young and naive when they said those things. They didn't understand how tiring and complicated it is when you have kids and both parents have real careers. They didn't understand anything at all about the parenting grind. They're more tired now than they were in their twenties. And some of them were saying those things and truly aspired to do it, but simply do not have the executive functioning ability.
Anonymous
04/19/2023 12:27
Subject: Millennial men pitched themselves as equal partners. What happened?
Growing up, going to college and law school, I never knew a man who wanted a SAHW. Almost universally, high achieving men sought out peers to date. A guy who wanted to date a woman with a “mommy track” job or a low paying job was an unusual outlier. Most guys I knew were actively trying to date fairly high powered professional women, especially if they were on a high powered professional track themselves. One of my friends doggedly tried to pick up med students. Another one was over the moon when he met a woman who had just been admitted to Yale Law.
Also, the men I dated and the men I was friends with along the way professed to be all in on equal relationships. I knew lots of guys who prided themselves on cooking dinner as a date idea to show off how domestic they could be.
Now that we all have kids, it’s the tiny minority of men I know who have lived up to the promise. Their wives downshift while their careers take off. Best I can tell they’ve all forgotten how to cook or even grocery shop.
Was it just not modeled for them so they they didn’t know what they were signing up for? I’ve heard it speculated that boomer moms “did it all” meaning being a housewife and a corporate drone at the same time.
Is it that modern corporate jobs have just become so much more demanding you can’t perform on both fronts anymore?
Or are men just socialized to be more selfish?
Also, the men I dated and the men I was friends with along the way professed to be all in on equal relationships. I knew lots of guys who prided themselves on cooking dinner as a date idea to show off how domestic they could be.
Now that we all have kids, it’s the tiny minority of men I know who have lived up to the promise. Their wives downshift while their careers take off. Best I can tell they’ve all forgotten how to cook or even grocery shop.
Was it just not modeled for them so they they didn’t know what they were signing up for? I’ve heard it speculated that boomer moms “did it all” meaning being a housewife and a corporate drone at the same time.
Is it that modern corporate jobs have just become so much more demanding you can’t perform on both fronts anymore?
Or are men just socialized to be more selfish?